T Nation

2018 NFL Thread


#442

Rarely does Belichick publicly whine about a loss…there might be an example when he did, but it’s very uncommon…but I get your point


#443

Let’s pause and laugh at this again:

So by virtue of having Roethlisberger, Tomlin is underperforming by not matching the two most successful coach/QB pairings of all time (and even then, just by the “RINGZ” standard; Tomlin has a higher career winning percentage than Chuck Noll, by a significant margin).

If your standard for “underperforming” is “falling slightly short of the single most successful 10-year stretch by any coach/QB combination in the League’s first century” then uh, sure, I guess that Tomlin is underperforming. Along with every other current coach sans Belichick.

Big Ben is great and a HoF quarterback, but I don’t think he stands apart as the best QB in the League during any single season of his career. He led the league in passing yardage once (2014) and in touchdown percentage once (2005) - just before leading the league in INT the next season (2006). Even if you say that he’s nicked up and misses games (preventing him from winning passing titles) or that it’s just not the Steelers usual game plan to chuck it around the yard, it’s hard to build a case that Ben is appreciably better than contemporaries like Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers…I’ve always thought Ben was a franchise-level QB and the sort of guy who gives you a chance in just about any game, but he doesn’t stand out as “clearly the best in the League” at any point in his career.

Why is failing to win multiple rings with “probably one of the five or six best quarterbacks of his generation” such an indictment of Tomlin? By this standard nearly every NFL coach that’s ever coached a borderline-great quarterback is a failure.


#444

@ActivitiesGuy bringin the heat, lol


#445

I think as a fairly level-headed fan, who played the game for 14 years and have friends - both older and younger - that played / are playing in the NFL (true story: I babysat one of the Saints linebackers when he was a kid), I tend to stand on the side of players and coaches when it comes to fan criticism.

It happens to be pretty fucking hard to make it to the NFL, let alone be good, and I think most people underappreciate how hard it is to maintain that year after year. A coach with 12 straight seasons at .500 or better in the homicidally competitive NFL deserves better than people calling for his job because he hasn’t won four Super Bowls yet despite having the, uh, fourth best QB of the last 15 years?


#446

I hear you. If you ask Bmore fans, Harbaugh is the worst coach in NFL history, the defense is awful (despite being ranked best in the league), so on and so forth.


#447

LOL.

Harbaugh and Reid are two other guys that stand out to me in the same category as Tomlin - criminally underrated by their own fanbases despite producing consistent winners. If Harbs is fired after the season, the Browns should offer him whatever it takes to hire him. Those guys may not win Super Bowls every year but they bring a guaranteed level of stability. When Philly fired Reid and the Chiefs hired him, my dad & I both knew Reid would immediately take that swaying ship and turn them into a stable, playoff-level team.

I think it’s probably time for the Ravens to move on from Flacco, tbh, but for much of his career I was a pretty impassioned Flacco backer, too. Fans don’t appreciate what it’s like to have a good (even if not great) quarterback until they’re starting a Detmer or McCown brother at QB.


#448

Vikes fans already want Zimmer fired. It has been so nasty, his daughter made an instagram post about it. It amazes me how stupid some fans are.


#449

It’s crazy because the Raven’s had Kyle Boller for 5 years before Flacco. His best year he threw for about 2500 yards and 13/11 TD/INT. Flacco’s rookie year he threw for just shy of 3,000 yards (2,971) and was 14/12 TD/INT. For crying out loud, he has 2,465 yards and 12/6 through 9 games this years… Our fans are dumb.

The more I look at the stats the more ridiculous it gets:

Flacco:
image

Boller
image


#450

Yeah, I want to clarify: it’s not that these guys should be immune from criticism. It’s that, if there were so many guys floating around who could do a better job, it wouldn’t be so goddamn hard to build and sustain a winner in the NFL.

Critique is one thing: calling for the job of every coach that hasn’t won the Super Bowl in the last five years is just nuts.

(and yes, I’ve heard Philly morons start wondering whether Doug Pederson is the right coach for the job, less than one year after he guided us to the first Super Bowl championship in team history playing the entire playoffs with a backup quarterback)


#451

I saw that. Aren’t they still in the playoff hunt?


#452
  1. You take the Steelers HC job, you’re held to a higher standard (I think Cowher was a pretty bad coach and worse than Tomlin… but he never really had a franchise QB until Ben either).

  2. Most of Tomlin’s tenure in the AFC North, he’s basically spotted 4 wins before the season starts (3/4 against browns and Bengals 1/2 against Ravens). It’s comparable to the Patriots division most years.

  3. I say Tomlin is under performing because the team always starts slow on seasons and games, they are never ready to play. Tomlin has a long and documented history of playing down to bad teams and losing games they shouldn’t. I don’t mind when they lose to the Pats in the AFC championship game, but letting Blake Bortles hang 42 on you… really?! Getting beat by Tebow?! They tied the Browns and lost to the Raiders this year.

  4. Ben isn’t as good as Brady or Brees, but I’d say he has parity with Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers and is certainly better than Eli Manning.


#453

Right, people conveniently forget this stuff once they’ve had a taste of competence.

I thought it was time for Philly to move on from Reid at the end of his tenure - as much as I loved Andy, both sides needed a fresh start (and it worked out!) - but I hated that fans were chanting to FIRE ANDY at the games. Come on, folks, he took a team that was a steaming shitpile and made them a consistent winner. Show him some damn respect.


#454

Oh, for sure. I’m in total agreement with you.

Yup but underachieving quite a bit. They are the 6th seed right now and probably will make the playoffs, with how bad the Panthers have been… Wanting Zimmer fired is insane.


#455

You’re on drugs.


#456

How successful have the Browns and Bengals been for the past 10 years? Not very.


#457

Iirc, over the last decade or so, the AFC North is the only division to have sent three teams to the playoffs in the same year and they’ve done it twice.

*and they have to play each other…

Looks like the NFC East too


#458

So did McCarthy deserve to be fired for “underacheiving” with Rodgers?


#459

Why? That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard, though I do hear it regularly from Steelers fans. What makes the Steelers job something special and different from other NFL jobs that you should be held to a higher standard (than who, exactly?)

Hard nope on that one. Ravens and Bengals have been significantly better than any two clowns from the Jets-Bills-Dolphins triumvirate over the last 12 seasons (Tomlin’s tenure). That’s pretty easy to back up with data, dude. The Ravens have a Super Bowl title in that time! Over those 12 seasons:

Ravens: five 10-win seasons, nine seasons at/above .500
Bengals: five 10-win seasons, six seasons at/above .500
Browns: not worth mentioning

In the same timeframe:

Bills: zero seasons with 10 wins; only one season at/above .500 (9-7, 2017)
Jets: two seasons with 10 wins; six seasons at/above .500
Fins: two seasons with 10 wins; four seasons at/above .500

If you want to spot the Steelers the worst team of the group, fine, though the Browns are actually pretty close to the Bills. But the Ravens are significantly better than any of the other three in the Pats division, and the Bengals probably are, too, over the course of that timeframe. Hell, the Ravens and Bengals each individually have more 10 win seasons than the three AFC East teams combined during this time span.

This might be the worst argument yet, dude. It’s ludicrous to suggest that the Steelers have an advantage because of their division. The Browns suck a little more than the Bills; the Ravens and Bengals are far superior to Jets/Dolphins in the same timeframe.

(I picked 10 win seasons and .500 seasons because they’re easy to count quickly, if I had more time I’d tally their overall win % in the timeframe)

Look through the Patriots’ history. This same stuff gets said about them every September. A couple years ago they got blitzed by the Chiefs and “IS THIS THE END OF THE BELICHICK AND BRADY ERA?!” was the headline around the league. They won the Super Bowl that same season. Just because most fans are morons doesn’t mean you have to join them in this idiocy, you’re smarter than that.

Every year, some good team loses a stinker or two. Overall winning percentage kind of speaks for itself. It’s a bizarre circular logic - when you’re a really good team, occasionally you’re going to drop a game to a team that has a worse record than you, because, you know, you almost always have a better record than most of the teams you’re playing.

OK (I’d put Rivers in that Ryan/Rodgers group, too). So he’s in a tie for third-ish among QB’s of his (approximate) generation with two or three other guys (one of whom has one ring, the other of whom has zero). Across 12 years, why should that be an assurance of multiple rings?

Do you seriously believe that there are other coaches out there who clearly would’ve led this team to multiple titles during the same span? If so, who are they?


#460

Super competitive division


#461

As a Dolphins fan I feel personally attacked by this
:joy: