T Nation

200mg to 140mg: What Are the Notable Differences?

I’m on 200mg TRT every week along with .5mg anstrozole and I’m thinking of going down to 140mg. Greg Doucette and IFBB pro bodybuilder mentioned that on that dose it’s not too much of a difference to 200mg. Is there anyone who’s been on these 2 doses for periods of times and can tell me? Thanks!

It is a 30 percent reduction in dose.

If you are taking an AI you are doing it wrong. I’ve interviewed Greg and speak to him on occasion and he does not use an AI.

If you are designing a protocol based on someone you’re a fan of, you’re also doing it wrong. Your best number will rarely be his best number or my best number for that matter.

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Yeah I agree with both points. I’m talking about in terms of muscle, and other stuff. Id have to compare numbers really.

60mgs.

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I actually showed this to Greg just now and he had a giggle :wink:

You don’t base your hrt dose on muscle gains.

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Are you one of his clients? And no I’m not basing off muscle gains but free and total T numbers I have to go ahead and check it

No… we’re friends… not close friends or anything. I talk to him every few days or so. I interviewed him on my YouTube channel. We both deal with similar things so we always have some funny stuff to talk about.

Saying that “If you are taking an AI you are doing it wrong.“ is not true for everyone. When I started TRT, I was very reluctant to take any AI. My doc started me at 200mg per week, with twice a week injections. I told my doc that I’d rather take a smaller dose if it meant not taking an AI. So they dropped me down to 100mg per week, also two injections per week. I still had high estrogen symptoms, and really didn’t feel any better on that dose. I’ve been on 160 mg per week, two injections per week, for the last 6 or so years. I take 1/4 of 1mg anastrozole pill 24 hours after injection, and this seems like a good dose for me.

You are most likely sensitive to hormone fluctuations, as many are, including myself, and it has zero to do with estrogen. This is simply what you were lead to believe as I once was.

You don’t need an AI. You need an improvement in your protocol. Yes, I realize you won’t believe me but it’s the truth.

Tens of thousands of patients, if not approaching 100,000, with all the docs I deal with. Not one is using an AI. Not one.

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Yes,
You’re absolutely right. I don’t believe you. Where’s the evidence that it’s not high estradiol that causes anxiety, mood swings, and irritability? Where’s the evidence that the supposed tens of thousands that you claim aren’t on any AI, aren’t experiencing any high E symptoms? You know for sure that they aren’t experiencing any symptoms? Or maybe they are, but don’t know that an AI could help, and they just deal with the symptoms?

All I know from my experience is that my estradiol was high on 50 mg twice a week, with no AI, while experiencing irritability, and moodiness approximately 36-48 hours post injection. And when I began to take an AI, once dialed in, the symptoms went away.

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Well I bet a lot of guys do. Especially in this forum where there are a lot of lifters. All other things being equal, why wouldn’t you want the best dose for gains as long as it doesn’t screw anything else up?

I did say that you wouldn’t believe me :wink:

There are ways around this. In every case there are ways around it.

There is no evidence of it causing harm either. No evidence either way. Until there is, I won’t be concerned about something that has no evidence, just as I’m not concerned with pixies, unicorns, or the big flying poopie monster.

Every physician I’ve dealt with confirms no AI and patients doing great once dialed in.

It took 3 years for someone to change my mind about this (I used to take an AI).

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I noticed in a video of yours, that you used to be on the Saturday/Tuesday injection schedule, when you were doing twice a week injections. What protocol are you on now?

Is this question directed at me?

And this is how you lose your credibility and end up with a lot of people thinking you are full of shit. You and your drs have bashed those who prescribe AI to everyone. But you turn around and say no one needs them. Your drs have said everyone is different. But you make a general statement on AI. It would be far better if you said the majority of people don’t need them at HRT doses. Outside of that realm, it will be a case by case consideration. But no, you say no one needs them.

And I’d like to actually see the 100K patients of all the docs you deal with. That seems to be a really high number. 100K spread out over how many doctors? Seems like a high per doctor number. Which then makes me question the standard of care of those patients.

And last, you may be correct but who knows for sure. But, to say if a large majority of experts (doctors) say one thing and someone else believes something else, they should trust your group of doctors. Citizens of this country have been fooled, mislead, and lied to by experts over and over again. To blindly follow a group of like minded people (drs) would be dumb.

Yes.

have you tried EOD or ED injections instead? How are you even doing 1/4 of a pill if not compounded?

The goal is to try not to use an AI. They suck and they’re literally poison to the mind. Have you checked all other things like thyroid function?

Haven’t tried EOD or ED.

After I got dialed in on my current protocol, and as long as I eat fairly healthy, I feel great.

I use a pill cutter to cut the pill into 1/4.
I haven’t noticed any difference in the minimal differences in the dose not being exactly 1/4.

Thyroid levels are within range.

And your saying that AIs suck and are literally poison to the mind, what is this based on?

Emcon456,

I can’t say with the exact doses of 140mg and 200mg, but I don’t really notice a difference within the range of 160mg and 200mg per week. I notice a much greater difference with my diet. It’s my layman’s opinion, that when dealing with lifelong trt, I think the lowest dose that someone can take, which makes them feel great, is the best dose. More isn’t always better, especially longterm.

I wish you could realize that this is what they are reporting to me. If they were having better results having their patients on an AI, that what they would report back to me. Is anyone selling you anything? Am I selling you anything? Why would they or I make this up for literally no benefit whatsoever? Think about it. I’m in touch with a total of 17 doctors. Three reported having roughly 5000 patients when I asked them. If I was to use that as a hypothetical average, that’s 85000 patients, or close to 100k as I had suggested. They all tell me the same thing: none of their patients are on an AI. Will they make any money telling me this? No. Will I make anything telling you this? No. Have I been able to get every guy I’ve worked with off an AI? All except for one who was constantly combative. So what do you want me to do? Lie about all of it? Why? I’m just telling you like it is. You are free to do with this information as you wish. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.