T Nation

2000 Raw Total @ 242 @ 22 Years Old

[quote]mmatt wrote:

[quote]DaveForner wrote:

[quote]mmatt wrote:
Mainly how to progress with the programs.[/quote]

Do you mean what order, or how to increase training maxes, when to rest, etc?[/quote]

Yes to everything haha. [/quote]

I believe the proper order is 29, 37, 30, 32… then you get into the candidate for master of sports and such.

I’d take a bit off your max for 29, then add 15-20 lbs for squats and deads a month, and 10lbs to bench a month.

I really hope you give them a shot they’re awesome

So for example if you’re a level 1 lifter, you could run something like 37-30-31-32?

Have any of you found that you needed to inflate your bench press max for Sheiko? I have never done a Sheiko program, but I remember hearing people say that the bench work was too easy if you used your true max.

[quote]csulli wrote:
So for example if you’re a level 1 lifter, you could run something like 37-30-31-32?

Have any of you found that you needed to inflate your bench press max for Sheiko? I have never done a Sheiko program, but I remember hearing people say that the bench work was too easy if you used your true max.[/quote]

I’d start with your actual max, and fine tune from there, give it a month at your actual max, my gf inflated her max, then she actually hit that number, so ya never know, and it depends on fiber make up.

I would start at your actual maxes if you’re doing 29. That being said, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with starting light.

For bench, I believe common practice is to pause EVERY rep. Then, if it is still too blatantly easy, increase your Training Max by 5%.

I would ideally like to get into the gym either 6 days a week, or do it as designed with AM and PM sessions. Right now, I get almost zero, if not zero, assistance work done on the Sheiko days.

37-30-32 is definitely a good number progression. As for upping training maxes between cycles, you have to be honest with yourself, and this is where videoing lifts really comes into play. If the WHOLE month, or at least a vast majority of it, had the lifts move quickly, then upping your Training Max is a good idea. I suggest anywhere between 6.25 and 12.5lbs (as others have as well). If everything is hard during the month, but you have one or two fast moving sessions, don’t bother increasing yet.

I’m curious how many sessions per week you guys recommend. All the Sheiko plans I see online prescribe M-W-F, but some lifters like Ben Rice add a session per week. What are your thoughts, Larry and Dave?

I think number of sessions should be correlated with your ability to recover.

Start with M-W-F (or T-Th-S, W-F-S, whatever combination). Once you know you can recover enough between days, add more sessions. Personally, I started by adding a Saturday accessory day of solely upper back and core. I then added a mobility day on Sunday. This week I added an extra session on Tuesday that consisted of very light movements for upper back, triceps, chest, legs and core. It took about 30 minutes to complete).

Once I know I can do all of that, I plan on adding more to my Sunday mobilization, perhaps some shoulders and more core. It’s all about what you can recover from. It should also be added that Ben Rice is a god damn monster.

Interested to see Larry’s thoughts on this. Especially considering his 6 day per week approach.

That video was uber impressive.

Interesting discussion about Sheiko as well, good thread

I actually tried the 6-day/week approach for my last cycle of Sheiko about two months ago (it was #30). I didn’t really like it. The big, 2.5 hour sessions with a day off in between seemed easier to recover from, for me. I’d love to do the AM/PM split, but I can’t make it in twice a day, so I just had to grind it out. I also didn’t do a lot of assistance, just some light upper back stuff to keep my shoulders balanced after all the pressing.

As far as the bench being too easy, I remember reading people’s thoughts on that at the time. I’ve always found it pretty taxing with my real 1RM, though my former training partner thought it was too easy. I suspect the difference could’ve been that my 1RM was about 175lbs higher than his, so the actual numbers you have to put up probably change things.

[quote]DaveForner wrote:
For bench, I believe common practice is to pause EVERY rep. Then, if it is still too blatantly easy, increase your Training Max by 5%.[/quote]

I just thought of something. Could be people basing their bench press numbers off of their competition max (like the program says to do) which is paused, and then doing the Sheiko routine without a pause. Thus it would be too easy.

Perhaps the percentages are fine, you just need to pause every rep if you base it off of your competition bench, or if you’re not going to do any pauses, then base it off of your best touch and go. Like I said, never done it, just thinking out loud.

[quote]csulli wrote:
I just thought of something. Could be people basing their bench press numbers off of their competition max (like the program says to do) which is paused, and then doing the Sheiko routine without a pause. Thus it would be too easy.

Perhaps the percentages are fine, you just need to pause every rep if you base it off of your competition bench, or if you’re not going to do any pauses, then base it off of your best touch and go. Like I said, never done it, just thinking out loud.[/quote]

You’re probably right in most cases. Very few normal gym-goers I’ve seen pause their bench, even a lot of guys who’ve competed. I’d imagine the bench portion would feel pretty easy touch and go.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DaveForner wrote:
For bench, I believe common practice is to pause EVERY rep. Then, if it is still too blatantly easy, increase your Training Max by 5%.[/quote]

I just thought of something. Could be people basing their bench press numbers off of their competition max (like the program says to do) which is paused, and then doing the Sheiko routine without a pause. Thus it would be too easy.

Perhaps the percentages are fine, you just need to pause every rep if you base it off of your competition bench, or if you’re not going to do any pauses, then base it off of your best touch and go. Like I said, never done it, just thinking out loud.[/quote]

Definitely makes sense. I’d just pause the reps and use your paused max. Makes sense to train as you compete, and since you’re a raw lifter the pausing will help a ton.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
What does a typical non-peaking training week look like for him? [/quote]

I texted him and he said
monday - close grip
wed - deadlift
friday - bench
saturday - squat

knowing kade it’s probably for high reps, and not very heavy, but when it’s showtime he does what he’s gotta do

[quote]Sparty. wrote:
I’m curious how many sessions per week you guys recommend. All the Sheiko plans I see online prescribe M-W-F, but some lifters like Ben Rice add a session per week. What are your thoughts, Larry and Dave?[/quote]

Hey man, I just split it up into six days, so monday being squat bench squat, on monday I do the squat, then the second squat i do the top set afterwards, then good mornings, then lately something for my glutes, bench days I do flys, piles of upper back work, pull downs, side laterals, front raises, then I got flex in the changeroom, lol.

monday squat
tuesday bench
wed - deadlift
thurs - bench
fri - squat
saturday bench

I’ve always trained 6 days a week, I simply love being in the gym, there’s nothing better and nothing I’d rather be doing.

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
That video was uber impressive.

Interesting discussion about Sheiko as well, good thread[/quote]

Have you ever given sheiko a whirl Tim? I know you like to bench 3x a week

[quote]DaveForner wrote:
I think number of sessions should be correlated with your ability to recover.

Start with M-W-F (or T-Th-S, W-F-S, whatever combination). Once you know you can recover enough between days, add more sessions. Personally, I started by adding a Saturday accessory day of solely upper back and core. I then added a mobility day on Sunday. This week I added an extra session on Tuesday that consisted of very light movements for upper back, triceps, chest, legs and core. It took about 30 minutes to complete).

Once I know I can do all of that, I plan on adding more to my Sunday mobilization, perhaps some shoulders and more core. It’s all about what you can recover from. It should also be added that Ben Rice is a god damn monster.

Interested to see Larry’s thoughts on this. Especially considering his 6 day per week approach.[/quote]

I like your layout, but I personally think recovery is a little over rated… if you can hit the numbers, you recovered. I’ve squatted 6 days a week for 12 weeks, and I hit a 525 in my 2nd week, and 515 on my last week… I never got weaker, and never once did I recover per say.

I’d just do the assistance that sheiko recommends, and if you do extra work make it upper back and hamstrings/ glutes… that will help to reinforce proper posture, and posture makes you strong.

what do you think man?

[quote]Larry10 wrote:

I like your layout, but I personally think recovery is a little over rated… if you can hit the numbers, you recovered. I’ve squatted 6 days a week for 12 weeks, and I hit a 525 in my 2nd week, and 515 on my last week… I never got weaker, and never once did I recover per say.

I’d just do the assistance that sheiko recommends, and if you do extra work make it upper back and hamstrings/ glutes… that will help to reinforce proper posture, and posture makes you strong.

what do you think man?[/quote]

I’m definitely of the opinion that the whole “over training” and “recovery” thing is HIGHLY over rated.

My own personal definition of recovery is the ability to execute my main work flawlessly. Rather, practice it flawlessly. To me, and I think you would agree, the competition lifts are the bread and butter of Sheiko. If I add in too much work and I can’t execute them well, then I would consider myself “not recovered.” “Execute well” for myself means fairly quickly as well. I don’t think 80% sets should be grinders.

That’s the reason I add the extra work in slowly. I’ll just keep adding it and adding it until I don’t have anymore time, or I can’t “recover” anymore.

EDIT: I’ve never tried the whole “Bulgarian” method of squatting many times per week. Did you actually see gains from it? You say you didn’t get weaker, but did you test to see if you got stronger?

hmm… i tried to quote TB 284, but it didn’t work. sorry.
You’re probably right in most cases. Very few normal gym-goers I’ve seen pause their bench, even a lot of guys who’ve competed. I’d imagine the bench portion would feel pretty easy touch and go.[/quote]

I don’t pause my benches until I get to competition time, this might be wrong, and I may be learning something right now, but I still don’t do it.

And trust me man, the bench workouts are not easy, I find them very difficult, the weights are low, but the volume is sky high and some days you’ll do around 20 sets of bench. It’s a very tough program.

you want to start at your max, preferably lower, and progress month by month into it so that you’ve got momentum as you get to new territory. If it’s terribly light, then sheiko says you can add 5% for that workout, but I’d just stick with it for the month, work on technique, and probably next month it will be harder.

HARD is a short sighted way of gauging progress anyhow… if you’re a 300 bencher, pushing 250 with 300 pounds of force are you gonig to get weaker? as opposed to a 275 bencher pushing 250 with 275 worth of force. It’s not all about how hard it is. If it’s too easy, take shorter rests, that will make it stupid hard. Load/weight is only one aspect.

When I first started sheiko bench, I’d benched 365 and used 330 as my first max, it wasn’t hard, but it wasn’t easy either, I then went to 350 the following month, 360, 370,380,390… then I lowered it back to 370 and I’m working it back up to over 400.

you don’t have to lower the weight, but I lost 10lbs due to a medication I had to take, so it messed me up, but now that I’m off it, I’m working my ass off to get my weight back up, and I’m sure I’ll blow past my 390 trainnig max and get it to 405.

The other thing I do is take some heavier than prescribed singles once a week, just to keep a feel. Like when I could hit 375, I’d do 345 for a single, after work sets with 315.

Hope that helps guys

[quote]DaveForner wrote:

[quote]Larry10 wrote:

I like your layout, but I personally think recovery is a little over rated… if you can hit the numbers, you recovered. I’ve squatted 6 days a week for 12 weeks, and I hit a 525 in my 2nd week, and 515 on my last week… I never got weaker, and never once did I recover per say.

I’d just do the assistance that sheiko recommends, and if you do extra work make it upper back and hamstrings/ glutes… that will help to reinforce proper posture, and posture makes you strong.

what do you think man?[/quote]

I’m definitely of the opinion that the whole “over training” and “recovery” thing is HIGHLY over rated.

My own personal definition of recovery is the ability to execute my main work flawlessly. Rather, practice it flawlessly. To me, and I think you would agree, the competition lifts are the bread and butter of Sheiko. If I add in too much work and I can’t execute them well, then I would consider myself “not recovered.” “Execute well” for myself means fairly quickly as well. I don’t think 80% sets should be grinders.

That’s the reason I add the extra work in slowly. I’ll just keep adding it and adding it until I don’t have anymore time, or I can’t “recover” anymore.[/quote]

completely agree man

That is VERY impressive. He made it all look easy, form was perfect. Good for him, and good discussion on Sheiko.

[quote]666Rich wrote:
That is VERY impressive. He made it all look easy, form was perfect. Good for him, and good discussion on Sheiko.[/quote]

it’s 80lbs off of Larry Pacifico’s all time 242 raw total record… and he’s still a junior…