T Nation

2 Weeker Information

Hi guys first post here, am a member of a few other boards. I am not a newbee have done 4 cycles last one was a year blast and cruise. have used all test bases and a few anabolics. I have been reading a lot lately on short cycles from paul berreson stuff and l rea. i am liking the idea.

i came here and read about Bill Roberts stuff and it all seems logical. I can see that the reccomendations in the case study is arouind 10 years old. are the methods the same? where can i find more info on this thanks.

26
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http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/official_3_week_cycle_study_thread
http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/to_the_23_weekers_and_bill_roberts
http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/2_on_2_off_experiment
http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/2on2off_cycle_check

There are a few relevant threads. If anyone has any more links hopefully they will post them (I’d be interested to read them as well). The 2on/2-4off cycle is very interesting to me and I plan on starting my own series soon. Until then I am reading everything on it that I can find.

Differences are:

As we now have better aromatase inhibitors, e.g. letrozole, where a cycle has a fair amount of aromatizables such as Dianabol or testosteorne propionate, using an AI is preferred now to using Clomid or Nolvadex during the cycle for gyno protection.

The pseudo-taper deal of using some light orals in the first off week has been dropped.

While long-term, a ratio of being 1/3 of the weeks of the year is effective while conservative and suitable for most, it’s been well established by now that 2 on / 2 off also works fine when PCT is used in the off weeks, and even a single off week is acceptable from time to time.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
While long-term, a ratio of being 1/3 of the weeks of the year is effective while conservative and suitable for most, it’s been well established by now that 2 on / 2 off also works fine when PCT is used in the off weeks, and even a single off week is acceptable from time to time.[/quote]

I’m not sure I’ve seen you say it personally, but word is you recommend a 4 week or so break after a few consecutive 2 on/2 off cycles? Also, if that is true, is it correct to assume that the more “harsh” a cycle is (such as one including a higher dose of Tren or something) the more necessary it would be to take that extended break?

I also have a couple questions regarding PCT: Is there a standard PCT protocol that you recommend (such as Nolva 40/20 or something) for the 2 off weeks? If taking a 4 week break, is running a SERM the entire 4 weeks recommended, as opposed to only the first 2 or 3 weeks? I’m just wondering how I could begin devising effective PCT strategies for the 2-weekers.

THANKS.

[quote]BL4DE wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
While long-term, a ratio of being 1/3 of the weeks of the year is effective while conservative and suitable for most, it’s been well established by now that 2 on / 2 off also works fine when PCT is used in the off weeks, and even a single off week is acceptable from time to time.

I’m not sure I’ve seen you say it personally, but word is you recommend a 4 week or so break after a few consecutive 2 on/2 off cycles? Also, if that is true, is it correct to assume that the more “harsh” s cycle is (such as one including a higher dose of Tren or something) the more necessary it would be to take that extended break?

I also have a couple questions regarding PCT: Is there a standard PCT protocol that you recommend (such as Nolva 40/20 or something) for the 2 off weeks? If taking a 4 week break, is running a SERM the entire 4 weeks recommended, as opposed to only the first 2 or 3 weeks? I’m just wondering how I could begin devising effective PCT strategies for the 2-weeker

this was my next question lol. also is it necessary to have something like bromo caber or even prami in the pct for progest. or is the lack of time on an issue with prog build up. Thankyou all for your stick replies

[quote]BL4DE wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
While long-term, a ratio of being 1/3 of the weeks of the year is effective while conservative and suitable for most, it’s been well established by now that 2 on / 2 off also works fine when PCT is used in the off weeks, and even a single off week is acceptable from time to time.

I’m not sure I’ve seen you say it personally, but word is you recommend a 4 week or so break after a few consecutive 2 on/2 off cycles? Also, if that is true, is it correct to assume that the more “harsh” s cycle is (such as one including a higher dose of Tren or something) the more necessary it would be to take that extended break?[/quote]

No, I’ve never said it that way. I generally explain it in terms of weeks on per year, and the following subjective and unprovable appraisal that being on 1/3 of the time is conservative but can be quite effective; being on half the time is pushing it a little more but is still exercising some caution and isn’t extreme; and being on 2/3 or more is being quite aggressive and doesn’t necessarily give much more results by the end of the year.

And with regard to alkylateds, it’s probably best to not be on them more than half the time; it is more cautious to limit use to 6 weeks at a time; in general it is best to average at least as much time off of them as on; but it’s acceptable to have two stretches such as 6 weeks with a shorter time between them such as 2 weeks, or some modest number of 2 on / 1 off cycles before having a longer break off of the alkylateds.

[quote]I also have a couple questions regarding PCT: Is there a standard PCT protocol that you recommend (such as Nolva 40/20 or something) for the 2 off weeks? If taking a 4 week break, is running a SERM the entire 4 weeks recommended, as opposed to only the first 2 or 3 weeks? I’m just wondering how I could begin devising effective PCT strategies for the 2-weekers.

THANKS.

[/quote]

Really same PCT as anything else. The above is fine. I think running the 4 weeks is better but 2 weeks suffices.

There is no such thing as progesterone buildup, but there are drugs that cause progestagenic side effects, particularly Deca. Deca isn’t recommended for 2 week cycles.

Trenbolone has been accused of it, but I don’t at all believe that actual trenbolone (which a given UG preparation may not be) is progestagenic.

Great thread. I’m following the 2 on / 2 off protocol currently myself.

One question: I read Nolva has a half life of 5 - 7 days. So wouldn’t it make sense to 1) frontload the Nolva and 2) stop taking Nolva at least a few days before starting the next cycle? I think the second point is specific to the 2 on / 2 off protocol. Thanks

I do recommend frontloading Nolvadex.

It’s true one could stop a few days before the next cycle. But it’s not as if it’s harmful to have it in the system, albeit at dwindling levels, during the cycle. It seems to help blood lipid profile while on AAS. (Also, for men, while not.)

running along with the idea of running multiple 2on/2off cycles, would running the on/off cycle for a period of 6 months be better for recovery of natural T production as compared to a normal 12 week with the use of HCG during cycle?

Thanks for your replies everyone.

This is what i will be cycling rotating between the two depending on results and bloods

Cycle 1

1-12 tren a 100 ed
1-12 dbol 50 ed
1-14 adex .5 ed
14 until recovered (bloods) clomid 50ed front loaded on first day

Cycle 2

Same as above but sub dbol for test p 150 ed and drop tren to 50 ed

Does this sound ok?

[quote]malty_goodness wrote:
running along with the idea of running multiple 2on/2off cycles, would running the on/off cycle for a period of 6 months be better for recovery of natural T production as compared to a normal 12 week with the use of HCG during cycle?[/quote]

Yes.

Yes, though it’s always a guess with regard to Arimidex and another person. It might be more than needed.

And the Dianabol would be better run all 14 days.

On the second cycle, I’d make day 10 the last day of injection for the TP. You could fill out the remaining days with Dianabol.

This thread has quickly become very informative! Thank you Bill.

Dropping the Test P at day 10 is always recommended, even if Dbol isn’t on hand?

Also, if running letro/adex days 1-14, so long as you started Nolva on day 15, estrogen rebound shouldn’t be an issue?

Well, it also depends on dosage: if using a lot less TP you could go a little longer with it.

Basically, if we figure a 2 day half life, then at 150 mg/day if the last injection is the morning of day 10, then the morning of day 12 levels are commensurate with that of ongoing 75 mg/day use, by day 14 of ongoing 37.5 mg/day use (though not that precise), and by Day 1 of the first off week, with ongoing 26.5 mg/day use, or about 185 mg/week.

Which is just barely acceptable for the start of the recovery week.

But for example if using 75 mg/day, you could go another 2 days and be in the same situation on the first day of the first off week.

I would discontinue the letrozole on day 9. Estrogen rebound shouldn’t be an issue.

Bill do you have any other extensive reports or theories regarding these short cycles other than the ‘Jim case study’ I have been looking everywhere.

I really enjoy reading your theories

thanks

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
It’s true one could stop a few days before the next cycle. But it’s not as if it’s harmful to have it in the system, albeit at dwindling levels, during the cycle.
[/quote]

I’ve read some claims that Nolvadex is carcinogenic, so I try to minimize my use of it. Are these claims overstated? Is there any way to characterize how carcinogenic it really is?

[quote]ffig wrote:
Bill do you have any other extensive reports or theories regarding these short cycles other than the ‘Jim case study’ I have been looking everywhere.

I really enjoy reading your theories

thanks[/quote]

I never documented any other case. I never cared to bother people who consulted with me even to provide me with before and after measurements, let alone the bloodwork and 1RM’s and so forth. “Jim” is a personal friend and so I was able to impose on him to do all that.

Broadly speaking though a lot have done them and been very happy; none reported being disappointed or in any way displeased.

On Nolvadex: medically it is considered quite safe. The main problem that has been learned with time is that in some fraction of individuals, after very long term use it can lose effect or even become estrogenic itself. So truly chronic use is probably not best. But it’s not normal to use it continuously in bb’ing in any case.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Well, it also depends on dosage: if using a lot less TP you could go a little longer with it.

Basically, if we figure a 2 day half life, then at 150 mg/day if the last injection is the morning of day 10, then the morning of day 12 levels are commensurate with that of ongoing 75 mg/day use, by day 14 of ongoing 37.5 mg/day use (though not that precise), and by Day 1 of the first off week, with ongoing 26.5 mg/day use, or about 185 mg/week.

Which is just barely acceptable for the start of the recovery week.

But for example if using 75 mg/day, you could go another 2 days and be in the same situation on the first day of the first off week.

I would discontinue the letrozole on day 9. Estrogen rebound shouldn’t be an issue.[/quote]

Makes great sense, thank you.

About Letrozole - would you recommend front-loading? What about starting the letro a few days before the cycle begins? I am referring to letro being used to reduce bloat while on a cycle including larger dosages of Test Prop and Dianabol.

On the letrozole: I take three days’ worth on the first day for the frontloading purpose.