T Nation

2 Week On//4 Week Off Protocol - Oral Tbol. Viable?


#1

Hello folks,

before this thread is misconstrued as an “afraid of needles so he wants to do an oral only cycle” thread, let me refer you to this, my previous topic:

Therein, you’ll find my reasoning for why I opted to go with the 2 week on//4 week off protocol, the compounds I have at my disposal currently, several other details and my still unresolved issue regarding Test prop.

In short, I have zero issue with needles, I’ve just had a so far unexplained reaction to Test Prop (uncharacteristic anxiety within about 45 minutes of first injection which lasted for about 9 days from day 1), and as long as that remains unresolved, I can’t move forward with my previous test prop/oral tbol cycle as planned. (if interested or able to offer insight on that, please do check the link above)

Now I understand the importance of having test as a base in every cycle, my question however is this; Would an oral tbol cycle for a period of 2 weeks to 18 days (no matter how undramatic the results would be) be viable?

I’ve read countless threads talking about tbol only cycles for periods of 6 weeks, without typical unfavorable suppression symptoms (unlike anavar), no doubt it is happening to a certain degree, (I believe I’ve read that test levels can be suppressed by about 60% with this compound, probably varies according to the individual), and while for a 6 week period, that doesn’t seem prudent, perhaps in a 2 weeker it wouldn’t be much of an issue? Perhaps suppression symptoms would manifest about 10 days in, and with the pituitary not going into a deeper state of inhibition, recovery would be very swift (with a moderate dosage of clomid)?

I’m under no illusion that gains will be dramatic, but even 2-3lbs of keepable clean mass within that time frame (assuming my diet and training is spot on) would be fantastic; after all, the benefit of these short mini cycles is best experienced with several consecutive cycles as long as proper recovery is achieved.

In case the other thread is TL:DR, (it definitely is!! :`D), basic stats are:

age: 31
weight: 185lbs at 9-10%bf
height: 5`11"
training history: consistently with heavy weights since 16 years of age, only hiatus for 8 months due to arm break at 18 years of age
goals: to gain between 10-15lbs of solid clean muscle (in total, with probably several of these cycles)

I’m a new poster here (as in a person posting, not a sheet of strikingly colorful A3 sized paper), but I’ve been reading the articles and forums on this site since about 12 years, so gratitude is in order for all the information/entertainment I’ve assimilated/experienced here throughout the years.

Looking forward to all kinds of advice and insights from people far more experienced in this field than I, thanks in advance :wink:


#3

Are you planning on doing a PCT during the 4 weeks off? I did a series of 2 on/4 off cycles (Tren A/Mast P/Test P) a couple years ago, and was doing a nolva PCT the first 2 weeks off. For those compounds, 4 weeks was too long in between. The fourth week I was really dragging ass and couldn’t wait to start the next round of injections. Those compounds were obviously more suppressive than tbol (especially at the dosages - 50mg each per day while on), but you get my point.

For a short cycle to work you have to take larger doses, so with tbol that means 40mg per day. I think I’ve gone as high as 60, but didn’t see any difference above 40. I’ve only done a tbol-only short cycle once, and that was 3 weeks - was really starting to feel the effects of it when I stopped. Gained some weight (forget how much) and kept most of it. Doesn’t aromatize, so no water weight gain. It will increase RBC count, meaning painful pumps after a few weeks (but shouldn’t be an issue at 2-3).

Tbol is my favorite oral, though I’ll admit I haven’t used too many others. I used winstrol on one of my short cycles, but even at 100mg per day didn’t see a bit of difference beyond the injectables. (think it was 100, I forget - just remember not noticing any difference)


#4

Hey man thanks for the reply, I’ve run across a few other threads with you detailing your experience with 2/4 cycles, I believe you did about 5 back to back?

I was planning on going with pct, what I have available is clomid, 20 tabs @ 50mg each. (have no idea how I will tolerate it, but I’m not going to frontload it, that sounds… risky)

When you say you were dragging ass, do you mean you felt you were regressing muscle-wise? or simply you couldn’t wait to get started with another because you were happy with the results?

I have 96 tbol tabs remaining, each 10mg, so I was planning to split them over two separate 16 day cycles @ 30mg ed. It’s a more conservative dose, but it’s my first foray into physique enhancement, so I’m in no rush, and this gives me the chance to adjust.

Glad to know you did a tbol-only cycle for 3 weeks, a few questions;

  • when you say you started to feel the effects of it, do you mean the postives? (increase strength, recovery etc) or any negatives (suppression etc.)
  • any positive or negative impact on your libido those 3 weeks you were on?
  • how long after the 3-weeker did it take for your hpta to return back to normal, and how long was the pct?
  • I’ve heard that there isn’t much difference in suppression between 3 weeks and 8 weeks (ala Bill Roberts), that’s why I opted for a little less (16 days), did you noticed a difference between your 2 weekers and 3 weeker despite the compounds used being different?

Thanks in advance!


#5

While some have had success with the 2 ON/2 OFF method, I’ve been more fond of just pulsing orals or SARMS on workout days (M,W,Fri,Sun)

This allows breaks between dosages, minimizes shutdown as you’re taking in far less of the compound weekly, and still reaps great benefits without the accumulation of side effects that happens with daily usage.

I think 60-80mg of Tbol split in two dosages 4 days a week for 4-10 weeks would work great and make PCT easier as well.

Good luck!


#6

Sorry for the delay, haven’t been on here in a while.

As far as dragging ass, the last week before starting injections again I had less energy, had trouble motivating myself in the gym (considered skipping lifting days - something I never do), and felt weaker than I should have been. My guess is PCT was too close to the cycle, or not long enough in duration (remember, these were tren/test/mast short cycles dosed at 1050mg total per week <50mg each injected every day> - have never had these issues with tbol).

  • Started to feel the effects: it was my first cycle in quite a few years, and was very modest (dipping my toes, so to speak). About the time I stopped (3 weeks), I was noticing my strength had gone up, along with some weight gain and visible differences. Can’t comment on what strength or weight increases were as I don’t have access to my old log book right now (out of town for a couple months - but I have log books going all the way back to 99) - just that they were just becoming noticeable.

  • Libido during 3 weeks on (assuming you are talking about the tbol cycle): don’t recall any impact on libido specific to that one (if anything it was increased), but then I’ve always had a high sex drive. On the tren/test/mast cycles, the wife was pretty pissed at my tren dick (would basically go numb mid-way through, or get soft, or both) - that actually took a while to clear up.

  • After the 3 week tbol, I didn’t notice any symptoms of suppression. Just felt normal again, rather than the slight bump I felt on the tbol. Can’t say I ‘feel’ anything on tbol, as far as everyday stuff. Obviously notice some increased drive and strength in the gym, and some bump in libido, but that’s about it.

  • Huge difference between the 3 weeks of just tbol and the repeated 2 weekers with tren/test/mast. Of course there will be a difference, we’re talking about 280mg per week of tbol versus a combined total of 1050mg per week of the others. Aside from the last week before starting injections sucking ass, about a month or so after my last one, I felt like I crashed. Went a week or two with low motivation, strength suffered, less drive in the gym, lowered libido. I had only done the same two week PCT that I did between the short cycles, so I did a full 4 week nolva PCT again, and that fixed the issue - basically did a restart of the HPTA.

Having said all this, tbol will work better for you if you do one continuous cycle - I think you will be disappointed with short tbol-only cycles, especially at 30mg per day. With 96 tabs at 10mg each, your best bet to see anything (albeit still minor) would be to just run 40mg/day until you run out - comes out to 24 days. You have clomid on hand, but you most likely won’t need a PCT coming off the tbol.

Just my opinion.


#7

Hey thanks for the input, just a question though, I’ve heard of this method on another forum, and while most of the discussion on it is anecdotal, the actual results have been hit and miss (as I’ve read), and while it’s interesting as I don’t mind the slower gains, doesn’t tbol have too long of a half-life (16hrs) to allow for it’s successful implementation? In most instances I heard of dbol being used in the AM. What compounds did you use for this method and what were your results like?


#8

Hi boatguy, glad you replied, I had almost given up hope. :`) thanks for taking the time to include so much detail, very helpful. I would still go with the 2 week on idea, maximum up to 3 weeks, simply to err on the side of caution. I don’t know how I will respond, or if I feel suppression symptoms, or how long until I’m recovered. A few additional questions:

  • Since Nolva has a shorter half-life than Clomid, would it be quicker in starting up my hpta (or recovering whatever was suppressed)? Should I purchase Nolva in addition just in case I can’t tolerate clomid for any reason?

  • Is the Clomid frontload really necessary? (taking 100mg over the first 3 days seems a little excessive)

Thanks again!


#9

Like I said, your best bet with tbol (going off the amount you said you have) would be to run it till it’s gone. It’s fairly mild in action, so you shouldn’t have any issues. It’s not estrogenic (won’t aromatize), but it is suppressive to some degree (like I said, I’ve used it without PCT with no issues). You bring up another good point about the half life being so long - another reason to just run a normal cycle and see what happens. Even with a 16 hour half life, if you experience any sides while on (seriously doubt it), just stop taking it and it will be out of your system within a few days. I really think two weeks on tbol is too short a time. Most guys will advise against an oral-only cycle regardless. I will say you’ll see much better results with injectables, but if you’re going to do an oral-only, hundreds of East German Olympians can;t be wrong :wink:

I have no experience with Clomid, I’ve only used Nolva for my PCTs. Look through the Pharma forum, there is an excellent write up about PCT (forget who posted it, believe KSMan was involved and that dude knows his shit). Look in ‘About the Pharma’, believe it is sticky’d in there.

As far as the question of results, if I recall I gained around 10 pounds in each my first couple 2 week cycles, then lost around half during the off periods. This tapered off till the next to last I only gained a few pounds, and then didn’t gain anything on the last one - but I also didn’t adjust my calories up during those last two. Net gain over the series of 4 or so short cycles was around 10 pounds. Hit a best-ever bench of 370 x 1, which I don’t really count because it was during one of those shorties and I’ve never even come close to replicating (typical 1RM stays around the 330s)

I tried doing dbol as a ‘pre-workout’ as has been talked about on this board before, and saw absolutely nothing from it - no weight gain, no strength gain, not even a little increased aggression.


#10

Thanks again boatguy for taking the time and sharing all the info and advice. After reading the pct sticky you recommended plus a few other sources, I feel that nolva would be a better fit regarding pct. Once I have that, I’ll be good to go. :o)