2 vs 1 Road Rage Fight

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

Just a little something for “real” discussion. The hell with theory and bullshit about 6 vs. 1 fantasy crap. [/quote]

And that’s how shit gets real and fucking stinky.

You wanna be Jet Li or Jackie Chan, then fail miserably. People who want to hurt you badly won’t wait around to do it.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I used to be the guy with the badge and gun. I would probably have 1) called 911 / used my radio to call local law enforcement 2) gotten out of the car with badge visible and gun drawn at a healthy “rush me and die” range 3) put everyone face down on the asphalt 4) let local PD backup come sweep them up 5) been doing paperwork for the rest of the week.

Now that I don’t have the badge? I don’t even stop the car, just call 911 and report it with the nearest mile marker and which side of the highway they’re on.

On this topic in general:
It looks like every single person with real world training and experience who has weighed in on this has said that in a real world situation, you really don’t want to be fighting more than one guy. Oh yeah, and if you fight in the street, there’s almost always more than one guy.

Yes, there are ways to win a 6 on 1. I would be doing readers of this board a disservice if I tried to teach any of them on a message board, or if I ever even conveyed the impression that even a really good fighter has better than infinitesimal odds. I said it in the other thread and I’ll say it again here: physically fit adult trainees with no less than 8 weeks of intense (2-4 hrs/day, 5 days/week) physical preparation, with specific and progressive training leading up to their mob assault training, generally last about 30 seconds against 3 guys. With gloves, mouth guards, and head gear. Never, in my entire time in training, did I ever see or hear of anyone lasting more than 1:30 against 5 guys. That guy was 6’3", 220, a kodokan judo black belt, a former corrections officer, and a legend for putting down three instructors before succumbing (mostly via throws into walls, btw). It’s not impossible to survive a mob assault, but never should anyone reading this think there is even a fair chance, and anyone who voluntarily initiates one deserves a nice long stay in the ICU to work on their decision making skills.[/quote]

Such a fantastic post on many levels.

I read a lot about self defense for a variety of reasons, but besides it being just an interest of mine, as a journalist I can find myself in some pretty fuckin weird situations that have the capability of getting out of hand very quickly.

In a way, it’s the same circumstances as what Devildog is speaking on - while other people are running away from a situation, we’re running towards it.

A particular worry of mine is always the possibility of mob assault, especially when in foreign countries. It devolves into such a chaotic state SO quickly, and the guy who hits you and knocks you out may be some guy that’s not even involved, but just watching from the sidelines and pulls a kind of groupthink move and clocks you when you’re close enough and then doesn’t do anything else.

The focus is not on engaging, it’s in literally clearing the way so you can escape. If you do that by punching a guy and laying him out, great. If you do it by pushing past him (or them), great. But the focus is purely escape.

Again, to use a military analogy - you’re outnumbered six times over, nearly surrounded, and the other guy’s weaponry is way better. Only the stupidest general would say “Stand and fight.”
[/quote]

I agree with Irish, that was once again a fantastic post Jim.

This brings to mind a question:

Isn’t the prospect of jumping in to “save”/assist the downed guy an even shittier situation than just the poor odds of a 3-1 conflict.

The “conventional” wisdom is to keep moving when facing a group for a variety of reasons, but in this instance that may not meet the goals. If you are getting involved to save coma man than you are going to either need to guard his immobile form or quickly reduce the attacks/threats. You are denied the ability to really maneuver, because that is abandoning the person you are trying to protect. That would be a whole new level of suck to deal with. To play of Irish’s war analogy you use maneuver in order to require less in slaughter(Clauswitz refference).

In this situation I don’t like the legal situation if any bystander just went all out on the 3 “victors”, but trying to just stand over and guard Mr. Supine seems like it would get you joining him in the coloring books for Christmas category.

To Jim, Idaho, Big Boss, and anyone else who has training/experience with defending a downed person; am I not seeing something, or are the odds as long as they seem to me?

I understand if you don’t want to share any actual agency TTP’s, if that is the case large strokes would still be great.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

I don’t disagree, but would like to add that even then you are buying into a “May beat the RAP, but you won’t beat the ride” situation. Arrest, even without a conviction(never mind a lesser charge) can still be a life altering experience.

Robert A[/quote]

I remember reading somewhere that for those who always carry guns, regard each trigger pull as automatically costing you between $3,000 and $5,000 right off the bat.

It really puts it in perspective for those who say “I’ll just carry a gun.” Hope your wallet is thick too, because you pull that trigger one time and you’re defending yourself in a criminal court to prove you were justified, and then in a civil case to prove it again.

[/quote]

The way I would articulate this, is simply that the gun is a tool that may allow you to solve very specific problems. Problems so dire and time sensitive that other methods are even poorer options.

So, if you are facing a situation that is so bad your best route out of it is to launch tiny pieces of metal through another human’s anatomy, RIGHT NOW, than facing financial ruin is almost a “first world problem”. These are not problems that only confront gun owners. They are problems that when you are facing them you will be using whatever means you have available.

To be fair 3-5K is a low figure, and one you could easily hit just by going hands on with someone.

Police acting in professional capacity may have a bit more room to operate because of QE and civil liability coverage. I cannot speak to that world.

Regards,

Robert A

Showed this video to my son who will be in high school next year. I’ve told him if someone talks shit, walk away. If they come at you, make sure you have friends that can help you if you get taken down. Cuz I’m pretty sure they will likely have friends with them.

[quote]Robert A wrote:

The former is ill advised. The latter sounds like I could be starring in my very own George Zimmerman esque thread in the Get a Life section, complete with harsh insults by DarkNinjaa.

And that would make me sad.

Cause I like Madame Ninjaa. She has spunk.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Hahaha, I’ve missed this post!

Well, thank you :slight_smile: But I can’t help being a bad girl.

[quote]Robert A wrote:

This brings to mind a question:

Isn’t the prospect of jumping in to “save”/assist the downed guy an even shittier situation than just the poor odds of a 3-1 conflict.

The “conventional” wisdom is to keep moving when facing a group for a variety of reasons, but in this instance that may not meet the goals. If you are getting involved to save coma man than you are going to either need to guard his immobile form or quickly reduce the attacks/threats. You are denied the ability to really maneuver, because that is abandoning the person you are trying to protect. That would be a whole new level of suck to deal with. To play of Irish’s war analogy you use maneuver in order to require less in slaughter(Clauswitz refference).

In this situation I don’t like the legal situation if any bystander just went all out on the 3 “victors”, but trying to just stand over and guard Mr. Supine seems like it would get you joining him in the coloring books for Christmas category.

To Jim, Idaho, Big Boss, and anyone else who has training/experience with defending a downed person; am I not seeing something, or are the odds as long as they seem to me?

I understand if you don’t want to share any actual agency TTP’s, if that is the case large strokes would still be great.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

No doubt, adding an objective like a downed or helpless individual compounds your problems exactly to the extent that you care about how much damage is being done to the victim. The more you try to defend the helpless one, the less attention you’re paying to your surroundings and the more you get anchored to one spot (which is, generally speaking, the kiss of death).

The general law enforcement solution, without being too specific, is either wait for things to die down or come in with overwhelming force. Law enforcement has a clearer way out (legally speaking) in any “good shoot” situation that might arise from holding a bunch of angry people at gunpoint and maybe having to unload on them. But you have to go in knowing you may have to shoot someone, prepared to do it, and you have to make the decision in a flash knowing that someone two years from then in court might think that you were unreasonable in pulling the trigger on a group of “unarmed men.” If you’re a civilian? Yeah, you’re just another participant when the cops show up.

Just look at the discussion here. Some guys who have fought in a ring seem to have an overblown perception of what a trained individual can do with his bare hands against an “average untrained man.” Most lay people don’t think unarmed men (or at my previous job, teenagers with rocks the size of baseballs) are any threat to a man with a pistol at any range. Even with an expert witness testifying that it is quite likely a group of 100% untrained guys could beat you down and shoot you with your own gun, it’s hard to break through the Hollywood bullshit everyone grows up seeing, and you may end up doing time for defending yourself against the motherfuckers who were trying to kill you while you were defending the life of the guy they were killing when you got there.

Like we keep saying ad nauseum, it’s going to be a bad day. “Better judged by 12 than carried by 6” sounds great on a t-shirt until you’re sitting in court wearing orange while some dickhead lawyer talks for four hours about how “unreasonable” your conduct was, how you’re just some jacked up palooka who goes around looking for some “action” and how that day you found what you were looking for. Then you get to pay someone like me your life’s savings, your parents’ life savings, a second mortgage on your house, and possibly the donations of some random strangers (good luck with that) to roll the dice and MAYBE convince 12 people who were too dumb or bored to get out of jury duty that you’re not the caricature the prosecution / plaintiff (yes, we’re doing it twice!) has painted you as.

All of a sudden, looking back, you’d probably realize that there were steps you could have taken to not be in that situation. And avoiding the situation is usually the only way it ends well. Street violence sucks, but if it’s not your job you can try to not participate. Sounds shitty of me to say it, but there it is.

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

This brings to mind a question:

Isn’t the prospect of jumping in to “save”/assist the downed guy an even shittier situation than just the poor odds of a 3-1 conflict.

The “conventional” wisdom is to keep moving when facing a group for a variety of reasons, but in this instance that may not meet the goals. If you are getting involved to save coma man than you are going to either need to guard his immobile form or quickly reduce the attacks/threats. You are denied the ability to really maneuver, because that is abandoning the person you are trying to protect. That would be a whole new level of suck to deal with. To play of Irish’s war analogy you use maneuver in order to require less in slaughter(Clauswitz refference).

In this situation I don’t like the legal situation if any bystander just went all out on the 3 “victors”, but trying to just stand over and guard Mr. Supine seems like it would get you joining him in the coloring books for Christmas category.

To Jim, Idaho, Big Boss, and anyone else who has training/experience with defending a downed person; am I not seeing something, or are the odds as long as they seem to me?

I understand if you don’t want to share any actual agency TTP’s, if that is the case large strokes would still be great.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

No doubt, adding an objective like a downed or helpless individual compounds your problems exactly to the extent that you care about how much damage is being done to the victim. The more you try to defend the helpless one, the less attention you’re paying to your surroundings and the more you get anchored to one spot (which is, generally speaking, the kiss of death).

The general law enforcement solution, without being too specific, is either wait for things to die down or come in with overwhelming force. Law enforcement has a clearer way out (legally speaking) in any “good shoot” situation that might arise from holding a bunch of angry people at gunpoint and maybe having to unload on them. But you have to go in knowing you may have to shoot someone, prepared to do it, and you have to make the decision in a flash knowing that someone two years from then in court might think that you were unreasonable in pulling the trigger on a group of “unarmed men.” If you’re a civilian? Yeah, you’re just another participant when the cops show up.

Just look at the discussion here. Some guys who have fought in a ring seem to have an overblown perception of what a trained individual can do with his bare hands against an “average untrained man.” Most lay people don’t think unarmed men (or at my previous job, teenagers with rocks the size of baseballs) are any threat to a man with a pistol at any range. Even with an expert witness testifying that it is quite likely a group of 100% untrained guys could beat you down and shoot you with your own gun, it’s hard to break through the Hollywood bullshit everyone grows up seeing, and you may end up doing time for defending yourself against the motherfuckers who were trying to kill you while you were defending the life of the guy they were killing when you got there.

Like we keep saying ad nauseum, it’s going to be a bad day. “Better judged by 12 than carried by 6” sounds great on a t-shirt until you’re sitting in court wearing orange while some dickhead lawyer talks for four hours about how “unreasonable” your conduct was, how you’re just some jacked up palooka who goes around looking for some “action” and how that day you found what you were looking for. Then you get to pay someone like me your life’s savings, your parents’ life savings, a second mortgage on your house, and possibly the donations of some random strangers (good luck with that) to roll the dice and MAYBE convince 12 people who were too dumb or bored to get out of jury duty that you’re not the caricature the prosecution / plaintiff (yes, we’re doing it twice!) has painted you as.

All of a sudden, looking back, you’d probably realize that there were steps you could have taken to not be in that situation. And avoiding the situation is usually the only way it ends well. Street violence sucks, but if it’s not your job you can try to not participate. Sounds shitty of me to say it, but there it is.

[/quote]

This post, especially the last two paragraphs, is one of the best I’ve ever read on this site.

[quote]fnf wrote:
Showed this video to my son who will be in high school next year. I’ve told him if someone talks shit, walk away. If they come at you, make sure you have friends that can help you if you get taken down. Cuz I’m pretty sure they will likely have friends with them. [/quote]

My best friend - a massive bodybuilder who was one of the toughest guys I’ve ever known - was beaten to literally within an inch of his life (including full on stomped) by a group of kids in our high school parking lot.

He never won any money off it because they tied it up in court forever, and in the end, he was suspended and got screwed because even though he knew the group of 20 guys was out there, he went out there anyway.

You can only do what you can do, and if you’re cornered, you do what you have to, but HS is no joke and kids can definitely get fucked up in it.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Also, I wonder what the legal ramifications are gonna be for all parties involved?[/quote]

At the beginning since both the bald guy and black guy are putting up their fists and the black guy is saying come on and the first blows are thrown, that part would be mutual assault. Which means that both of them could be charged with assault and battery on the other. Nothing real serious.

Then when the bald guy is losing and his buddy jumps in, the second guy could possibly argue he was acting in self defense to protect his friend. And that would cover number two up until the point that they knocked out the black guy. With nothing too serious yet charge wise, probably just some misdemeanor assault charges.

The very next blow which was a kick to the head of a down and unconscious opponent probably turned that into a felony assault. Especially after the follow up kicks. Then the second guy kicked him in the head a few more times as well. At a minimum felonious assault, felonious wounding. If the Black guy had serious injuries or complications like a blood clot on the brain as a result of the injuries they probably could get charged with attempted murder.

Robert A.
I can give a couple of examples of trying to pull injured officers from a fight, but, cannot from a civilian standpoint, because all my adult life, I have either been military or LEO. However, I have been personally sued for excessive force on both those occasions and for the individuals on this board who have no experience with the criminal justice system , please pay heed.

Some background: Spent my youth growing up state/ foster homes, learned very quickly the meaning of protecting your food, especially your cake. Got into TMA for an outlet and protection, graduated to boxing/ Muay Thai / Kali/ whatever I could to keep my skinny ass from getting stomped. Military to LEO.

Before going with the Feds, I was a street cop for 10 years in a major southern city, assigned to regular patrol/ vice/ narcotics/ swat.

Case # 1. I was assigned to SWAT at the time and on Friday and Saturday nights they would put two of us in an unmarked car to act as back-up to regular patrol units in high crime areas. The powers that be thought because we had better weapons in the trunk, we could ?intimidate? the bad guys to be more docile?I know funny?

We were floating an area of the city that had nothing but liquor stores, pawn shops, and strip bars. Always a good combination for testosterone overload and drunken women, perfect fight conditions. Around 2330 hours a fight call came in from a large ?Gentlemen?s Club? and two regular patrol units responded. We were a couple of miles away from the club, but, we cleared on the call and told radio we were about 5 minutes out.

The two regular patrol units arrived, went inside, and stepped into one of the worst bar fights, I have ever been involved in. It seems the local chapter of the Outlaws had tried to ?evict? a bunch of rednecks from their ?bar?. The first two officers put out a help call and when I went through the door, a dancer was screaming they were killing the cop. This is one of those places that has a narrow corridor, that turns three or four times before you actually get to the bar/ stage.

The place was packed with screaming idiots and my partner and I had to start screaming, shoving, kicking guys out of the way. Finally got to the center of the floor and this large guy was actually holding this light officer OFF THE FLOOR and shaking him like a rag doll. I finally got to him and kicked him as hard as I could behind the knee. Never fazed him , just looked and screamed ?motherfucker, I am going to kill you? . ok, mmmmm, shit getting deep.

I was carrying a 5 cell Kell-Light and I brought that thing around in a overhand strike and caught him between the right cheekbone and skull. To my good fortune , he folded up and dropped the officer. The troops got there and 18 people went to jail and 3 officers to the hospital. One of the officers was in the recovery for a week with cracked ribs and a broken nose.

Contrary to what civilians think, you cannot shoot people for fighting you. Back to my guy. When I fucked up and hit him in the head with the steel flashlight, unfortunately, it took 37 stitches to close him.

I was cleared by Internal Affairs but, I was personally sued for ?excessive force? and of course the city was sued, because they have the money. 18 months after the incident, I was still dealing with the attorneys / city attorneys/ department dickheads who weren?t there and thought I was ?too violent?. The city paid that asshole $250,000.00 and busted me to Sergeant. Now, if you are a civilian and get sued for ?excessive force? or whatever, who is going to pay but you? Intervening in a road rage fight/ domestic disturbance/ bar fight…etc?.Think long and hard about your financial and physical health.

Case#2.
I started to write about this on the 6 vs 1 thread. Now, I have been involved in the fighting arts since I was about 13 years old. Spent several years in Golden Gloves, long enough to know that I would never be world champion, fought several amateur MT matches, etc?so , I know what its like to hit and get hit, never felt that there was anyone on the street going to ?take me? LOL?How stupid can you be? That badge makes us all Superman.

I was working a project car by myself and received a stabbing call in one of the housing projects. My back up cleared and I got there first. As I was looking for the apartment number, a door opened and a female covered in blood fell into the narrow hallway. I went to her and saw her right side had been slashed open. I called for an ambulance and had her lay on the floor and press in on the cut.

About this time, a short, stocky male tries to step out the apartment, I said ?stop, stay there? show me you hands? He stopped, held his hands up and looked at me. I stood up because I didn?t like the way his eyes looked and just lowered his head and charged me like a bull. I had nowhere to go in the narrow hall way. He slammed into me, drove me into the wall, knocked the shit out of me. Instinct made me grab my service weapon, because, it is drilled into you that you carry your death with you, every day on duty.

He tried to tear my hand away from the gun, all the time, grunting and butting his head against my chest and head. The fight / flight reflex kicked in, and I rammed him into the other side of the wall. My right hand was on the thumb break of the holster, and I was hitting him with left hooks and uppercuts as hard as I could. Didn?t matter, never hurt him, I got some space and got my left hand around his head, pulled it down, kneed him several times?nothing?..nothing was working.

He still was trying to get my gun and for the first time in my LEO career, I thought I was going to die, because, when I know I am in deep shit, I get a cold feeling in my stomach, happened in the sandbox. Funny, after that passed through my mind, I just went crazy, forgetting all my training in everything, and just started winging punches, kicks, elbows, knees, whatever I could. He just kept grunting, twisting me around in a circle, trying to get that gun.

Now, the fight and this was a true fight, not a match with a referee, lasted about 1.5. minutes, before the troops got there and pulled him off of me. In that 1.5 minutes, I broke my left hand on his head, chipped a piece of bone off my right knee the size of a dime and had my nose broke and 3 ribs cracked?.1.5.minutes?.1 VS 1.

7 days later, I went to a preliminary hearing, they wheeled him in a wheel chair, seems during the fight, I broke 6 of his ribs, cracked his tibia, broke both cheek bones. Could not tell at the time, that?s for sure. Because he was the stabbing perp and the fight with me, they did a toxicology. He was wired to the gills on a combination of crack and PCP. Couldn?t feel a thing.

Once again I was sued for using excessive force in making a lawful arrest. Took about 13 months, but, it was dismissed. Good thing, because the city hadn?t forgot the first time?.

Now, there is going to be people who read this and say, ? guy sucks at fighting? Hell, Overeem would have put that guy out with one punch?maybe?but, he wasn?t there and I was. I think one of the big misconceptions in general, is that stylized training will always work in a real fight?no, it will not. Not when you encounter guys hopped up on drugs, alcohol, hate?.whatever. The whole fight dynamic changes. It?s a real life and death situation.

Since that time, I have been involved in several lethal force encounters, where after it was over, the shaking was off the wall, but, nothing sticks with me like that fight, because, at the time, I thought , I was real a badass. Now, when I don?t feel like training, I remember that fight and go train. Train hard and train often. Avoid street fights like the plague. Carry a .45ACP, where legal.

The criminal justice system doesn?t care about your motives or ?what is right?. Don?t put your life and your future in hands of some local prosecutor looking to make a name for themselves. Don?t EVER trust a jury to do the ?right thing?. There is no ?justice? in a courtroom, only a winner and a loser. Sorry for the long post.

[quote]idaho wrote:
Robert A.
I can give a couple of examples of trying to pull injured officers from a fight, but, cannot from a civilian standpoint, because all my adult life, I have either been military or LEO. However, I have been personally sued for excessive force on both those occasions and for the individuals on this board who have no experience with the criminal justice system , please pay heed.

Some background: Spent my youth growing up state/ foster homes, learned very quickly the meaning of protecting your food, especially your cake. Got into TMA for an outlet and protection, graduated to boxing/ Muay Thai / Kali/ whatever I could to keep my skinny ass from getting stomped. Military to LEO.

Before going with the Feds, I was a street cop for 10 years in a major southern city, assigned to regular patrol/ vice/ narcotics/ swat.

Case # 1. I was assigned to SWAT at the time and on Friday and Saturday nights they would put two of us in an unmarked car to act as back-up to regular patrol units in high crime areas. The powers that be thought because we had better weapons in the trunk, we could ?intimidate? the bad guys to be more docile?I know funny?

We were floating an area of the city that had nothing but liquor stores, pawn shops, and strip bars. Always a good combination for testosterone overload and drunken women, perfect fight conditions. Around 2330 hours a fight call came in from a large ?Gentlemen?s Club? and two regular patrol units responded. We were a couple of miles away from the club, but, we cleared on the call and told radio we were about 5 minutes out.

The two regular patrol units arrived, went inside, and stepped into one of the worst bar fights, I have ever been involved in. It seems the local chapter of the Outlaws had tried to ?evict? a bunch of rednecks from their ?bar?. The first two officers put out a help call and when I went through the door, a dancer was screaming they were killing the cop. This is one of those places that has a narrow corridor, that turns three or four times before you actually get to the bar/ stage.

The place was packed with screaming idiots and my partner and I had to start screaming, shoving, kicking guys out of the way. Finally got to the center of the floor and this large guy was actually holding this light officer OFF THE FLOOR and shaking him like a rag doll. I finally got to him and kicked him as hard as I could behind the knee. Never fazed him , just looked and screamed ?motherfucker, I am going to kill you? . ok, mmmmm, shit getting deep.

I was carrying a 5 cell Kell-Light and I brought that thing around in a overhand strike and caught him between the right cheekbone and skull. To my good fortune , he folded up and dropped the officer. The troops got there and 18 people went to jail and 3 officers to the hospital. One of the officers was in the recovery for a week with cracked ribs and a broken nose.

Contrary to what civilians think, you cannot shoot people for fighting you. Back to my guy. When I fucked up and hit him in the head with the steel flashlight, unfortunately, it took 37 stitches to close him.

I was cleared by Internal Affairs but, I was personally sued for ?excessive force? and of course the city was sued, because they have the money. 18 months after the incident, I was still dealing with the attorneys / city attorneys/ department dickheads who weren?t there and thought I was ?too violent?. The city paid that asshole $250,000.00 and busted me to Sergeant. Now, if you are a civilian and get sued for ?excessive force? or whatever, who is going to pay but you? Intervening in a road rage fight/ domestic disturbance/ bar fight…etc?.Think long and hard about your financial and physical health.

Case#2.
I started to write about this on the 6 vs 1 thread. Now, I have been involved in the fighting arts since I was about 13 years old. Spent several years in Golden Gloves, long enough to know that I would never be world champion, fought several amateur MT matches, etc?so , I know what its like to hit and get hit, never felt that there was anyone on the street going to ?take me? LOL?How stupid can you be? That badge makes us all Superman.

I was working a project car by myself and received a stabbing call in one of the housing projects. My back up cleared and I got there first. As I was looking for the apartment number, a door opened and a female covered in blood fell into the narrow hallway. I went to her and saw her right side had been slashed open. I called for an ambulance and had her lay on the floor and press in on the cut.

About this time, a short, stocky male tries to step out the apartment, I said ?stop, stay there? show me you hands? He stopped, held his hands up and looked at me. I stood up because I didn?t like the way his eyes looked and just lowered his head and charged me like a bull. I had nowhere to go in the narrow hall way. He slammed into me, drove me into the wall, knocked the shit out of me. Instinct made me grab my service weapon, because, it is drilled into you that you carry your death with you, every day on duty.

He tried to tear my hand away from the gun, all the time, grunting and butting his head against my chest and head. The fight / flight reflex kicked in, and I rammed him into the other side of the wall. My right hand was on the thumb break of the holster, and I was hitting him with left hooks and uppercuts as hard as I could. Didn?t matter, never hurt him, I got some space and got my left hand around his head, pulled it down, kneed him several times?nothing?..nothing was working.

He still was trying to get my gun and for the first time in my LEO career, I thought I was going to die, because, when I know I am in deep shit, I get a cold feeling in my stomach, happened in the sandbox. Funny, after that passed through my mind, I just went crazy, forgetting all my training in everything, and just started winging punches, kicks, elbows, knees, whatever I could. He just kept grunting, twisting me around in a circle, trying to get that gun.

Now, the fight and this was a true fight, not a match with a referee, lasted about 1.5. minutes, before the troops got there and pulled him off of me. In that 1.5 minutes, I broke my left hand on his head, chipped a piece of bone off my right knee the size of a dime and had my nose broke and 3 ribs cracked?.1.5.minutes?.1 VS 1.

7 days later, I went to a preliminary hearing, they wheeled him in a wheel chair, seems during the fight, I broke 6 of his ribs, cracked his tibia, broke both cheek bones. Could not tell at the time, that?s for sure. Because he was the stabbing perp and the fight with me, they did a toxicology. He was wired to the gills on a combination of crack and PCP. Couldn?t feel a thing.

Once again I was sued for using excessive force in making a lawful arrest. Took about 13 months, but, it was dismissed. Good thing, because the city hadn?t forgot the first time?.

Now, there is going to be people who read this and say, ? guy sucks at fighting? Hell, Overeem would have put that guy out with one punch?maybe?but, he wasn?t there and I was. I think one of the big misconceptions in general, is that stylized training will always work in a real fight?no, it will not. Not when you encounter guys hopped up on drugs, alcohol, hate?.whatever. The whole fight dynamic changes. It?s a real life and death situation.

Since that time, I have been involved in several lethal force encounters, where after it was over, the shaking was off the wall, but, nothing sticks with me like that fight, because, at the time, I thought , I was real a badass. Now, when I don?t feel like training, I remember that fight and go train. Train hard and train often. Avoid street fights like the plague. Carry a .45ACP, where legal.

The criminal justice system doesn?t care about your motives or ?what is right?. Don?t put your life and your future in hands of some local prosecutor looking to make a name for themselves. Don?t EVER trust a jury to do the ?right thing?. There is no ?justice? in a courtroom, only a winner and a loser. Sorry for the long post. [/quote]

That was better than some books I’ve read.

Excellent discussion so far. Will be able to participate more later. Idaho…devil_dog…great thought provoking posts…based in REALITY.

The reality of these posts really depress me…

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
The reality of these posts really depress me…[/quote]

The cop stories especially the first one was messed up because of the result. getting sued for protecting a fellow officer is beyond stupid. Once a cop says stop and you decide to fight him you should have just given up all rights you had. Seriously that asshole was gonna kill that cop. This is what happens when you let lawyers run the country.

This is why I fucking love this subforum.

I’d like to request that this thread get stickied to the top of this forum. I don’t think I’ve seen better posts on this topic anywhere on the internet.

It should be required reading before posting on this forum hahah.

[quote]idaho wrote:
Robert A.
I can give a couple of examples of trying to pull injured officers from a fight, but, cannot from a civilian standpoint, because all my adult life, I have either been military or LEO. However, I have been personally sued for excessive force on both those occasions and for the individuals on this board who have no experience with the criminal justice system , please pay heed…

… EVER trust a jury to do the ?right thing?. There is no ?justice? in a courtroom, only a winner and a loser. Sorry for the long post. [/quote]

Not a big fan of the police but…

Your post was simply awesome. Thanks for sharing.

Yes this should be stickied. I have a similar story where a guy was beating his “girlfriends” head against the window of a next door business. I, of course, intervened. Told the guy to leave her alone and pick on someone his own size, he promptly got in my face and told me to mind my own business or he wouuld beat my ass…LOL and I informed him we had already called the police and he should leave.

I was hoping the girl would run away or go inside somewhere to be safe since she was bleeding from her forehead but she did not. The guy went right back to screaming at her and slamming her into the wall so I walked over and told him to leave. Dude got in his car and was going for something, I saw an extension cord or something of that nature below the door and was not sure of what he had, when he slammed the door he had a stick…like half a broom stick or something and he started swinging on me.

I blocked his strike but the stick still caught me above the ear on the left side of my head. At that point I was pissed and figured I could legally beat the shit out of him which I did eventually. He broke the stick across one of my blocks and then attempted to stab me with the jagged portion but he was certainly suprised that I was commited to wooping his ass and was stabbing crazily and I had wounds on the back of my head and shoulders… bleeding pretty good. One of my friends came out and tried to puch the guy and I took his back and struck him in his eyes. Now for the crazy part…

As i am “defending” this “helpless” girl by beating this guy she startst to scream Leave him alone!! Don’t hurt him! I was like WTF??? After getting him all the way to the ground I backed off and evaluated the area looking for the cops because I did not want to be beating this guy when they showed up. The dude got up and got in his car and the dumbass girl gets in the car with him and they drive away.

so long story longer I probably will not get involved for another stranger like that again. The cops even asked my why I did it. At the time I was like Why would I not get involved?? They also told me that the guy has been arrested 54 times!! how the hell do you get arrested 54 times? They think he was a pimp for her or something like that.

To Jim and Idaho,

Thank you for answering. That was more than I could have asked for, and it appears others feel the same.

As far as tactics go my instinct was always to treat having to “rescue” someone as a potentially lethal event and thus something only to be entered into if I was willing to make it my “hill to die on” because it well could be.

Thank you again for all you do, well did in Jim’s case (You went lawyer right? I think I am supposed to hate lawyers due to my profession.)

Seriously though, thank you both for your service and for what you bring to this board.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Now for the crazy part…
[/quote]

Sad to say but I would think it crazier if that didn’t happen.

I am serious about having someone “watch”/on the “victim” in these situations.

You know the only time you should “cock” your hand back before you throw a punch?

When you need to run your elbow into the face/jaw/neck of someone trying to jump on your back, sometimes stabbing you with something, but usually yelling “DON’T YOU HURT MY___________”.

Regards,

Robert A