T Nation

2 vs 1 Road Rage Fight

[quote]Heroic Wolf wrote:
Dude, you guys are taking this way too seriously. It was just a fun hypothetical…And in my defense, Alistair Overeem did beat up 6 security guards a few years back, sending 4 to the ER, after his little bro was clubbed in the face with a flashlight and then jumped by the guards. Probably the closest real world anecdote to the conditions of the scenario I set forth.

And by average guys, I actually did mean average guys. Not a bunch of local tough guys who roll in a group jumping a fighter outside a bar, backing each other up and working as a unit. Literally the average American. 5-10 tall. 185 lbs. Overweight but not quite medically obese. Goes to the gym occasionally and can rep no more than 135 lbs on the bench press with good form. Would curl up and start crying after being punched hard once in the face. Extremely uncoordinated and would probably do more shirt-grabbing than actual damage. [/quote]

Wrong thread…hint-hint You grossly underestimate even what the average “dough boy” can do when odds are in his favor…i.e…numbers. Situations don’t allow time to assess if someone can bench press 135lbs…and assume they will curl up after being punched. Take that chance if you want…I won’t…and I’ve been training/competing for YEARS…along with YEARS of corrections experience(been witness to 6 vs.1…12 vs 2 situations)…and I’m no small guy either. Assuming too much wastes time…something crucial in altercations.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
What’s almost as disgusting as the jumping itself is this clown recorded the whole thing and didn’t raise a finger. Don’t know the story, don’t know who started what, and for all I know red shirt deserved the beating, but sitting idley by as a downed man takes unmolested kicks to the head is fuckin’ chicken shit. That dude should be ashamed.[/quote]

I thought the same…but then I realized that’s asking too much in this society. I’m sure the guy recording wasn’t the only person in proximity. Sounded like a busy road/hwy. [/quote]

I am not so sure about that.

Just going from the video everyone wanted “in” on that particular stupidity and the “could be a murder” beating didn’t exactly go on for hours. I won’t judge someone too harshly for not immediately leaping into the frey.

Hell, aside from the actual physical risk of volunteering to be outnumbered 3 to 1 (2 if Mr. Camera’s driver is in) there is the legal side. I don’t know where this was shot (Cali plates?) but getting into a situation where you have to injure others isn’t all blondes and blowjobs, especially if you don’t have a badge and the attached qualified immunity and indemnification against civil liability.

My only unqualified criticism is the whole “get up dude.”/start tugging on the guys arm strategy. The attackers had left. Put hazard lights on. Keep him still, hold c-spine if you are comfortable. Call 911/EMT and just talk to him.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Several times I’ve seen cops wait until a fight settled down to intervene, if it was just one squad car. That’s why in the video Irish posted in the other forum I had to give props to the guy that kept trying to stop the fight.

To Boss’ defense the guy could have used his phone to call, rather than to video.
[/quote]

Yep…most cops wait until the odds are in there favor to intervene. Same thing with corrections…where there always multiple vs one-two person altercations. We were trained…to NEVER intervene unless the numbers favored us…and it was best to observe for report purposes…until back-up arrived. Granted that wasn’t the “streets”…but still something vital to consider.

[quote]Heroic Wolf wrote:
And by average guys, I actually did mean average guys. Not a bunch of local tough guys who roll in a group jumping a fighter outside a bar, backing each other up and working as a unit. Literally the average American. 5-10 tall. 185 lbs. Overweight but not quite medically obese. Goes to the gym occasionally and can rep no more than 135 lbs on the bench press with good form. Would curl up and start crying after being punched hard once in the face. Extremely uncoordinated and would probably do more shirt-grabbing than actual damage. [/quote]

This is why your point is moot as the person you describe wouldn’t engage in that behavior in the first place.

[quote]Heroic Wolf wrote:
Literally the average American. 5-10 tall. 185 lbs. Overweight but not quite medically obese. Goes to the gym occasionally and can rep no more than 135 lbs on the bench press with good form. Would curl up and start crying after being punched hard once in the face. Extremely uncoordinated and would probably do more shirt-grabbing than actual damage. [/quote]

A 5-10 185lb 10 year old is really not average, that’s pretty tall.

That video is disturbing. Getting kicked in the head when you are down/out is a real possibility and will fuck you up bigtime. The guy that got beat was clearly willing to engage, which was not the smartest move on his part. Yeah…he knew some “shit” but was nowhere near capable to take on two shitty attackers.

Even if you are “good” you never know when you could slip or be blindsided. Dont do it unless you have to.

And if you do, best be carrying something like a knife etc, and have a good fucking lawyer.

FWIW Alastair Overeem does not count. He is A) Fucking HUGE and strong and B) one of the worlds most dangerous fighters. C) nobody on this forum is as good as he is

I wouldn’t get out of the car to help this guy. Take the chance of getting stabbed or shot or killed for some douche that I don’t know? Get the fuck out of here. Take the chance of ending up in jail myself because I got involved in something like this? No fucking way.

Don’t be swayed by the way these guys look, either. Keep in mind that you don’t know what happened or how it started, and Mr. Pink Shirt could very well have started this fight, even if the other guys look like gang bangers and he looks like an office worker.

And if Pink Shirt was a fighter, maybe this scenario goes differently. Maybe he lays the guy out and that ends it… or maybe he still ends up getting his ass kicked in.

See, that’s the thing when you fight on the street. You could be a really, really good boxer, but if you don’t understand what an “interview” is in self-defense terms, if you don’t see the pre-attack indicators, you’ll be caught just as off-guard as anyone else.

This leads to the guy being far too close for you to use the art that you know - if I’m a boxer, and the guy, while he’s interviewing me, gets his hand on my shoulder and closes in and we’re between two cars like these two are, then it’s going to be hard to bring my skills to bear.

It’s like an army having tanks and fighter planes, but using the wrong tactics. Well, planes need to be in the air to work properly, and tanks have to be positioned correctly for them to matter in the battle. If the opponent gets the drop on you and your planes are still on the ground and the tanks are way out of position, it doesn’t matter what else happens, you’re always going to be playing catch-up because you lost the initiative and now you’re on the defensive, and you’ll never be able to get 100 percent of your force committed.

Same thing in the street. If I can’t maintain range and the guy beats me to it, I’ll always be trying to separate myself enough to get the punches off. Now I’ve got to separate first, and then punch, while the other guy just keeps up the attack and he’s got all the advantage.

In the case in the video, it’s the fact that this guy squares off to fight one person, and ends up getting two. When the second guy enters, Pink Shirt’s tactics MUST change - but he doesn’t realize that he’s fighting two guys until its too late to change. By then, the endgame has started and Pink Shirt isn’t even close to being able to handle it.

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
What’s almost as disgusting as the jumping itself is this clown recorded the whole thing and didn’t raise a finger. Don’t know the story, don’t know who started what, and for all I know red shirt deserved the beating, but sitting idley by as a downed man takes unmolested kicks to the head is fuckin’ chicken shit. That dude should be ashamed.[/quote]

I thought the same…but then I realized that’s asking too much in this society. I’m sure the guy recording wasn’t the only person in proximity. Sounded like a busy road/hwy. [/quote]

I am not so sure about that.

Just going from the video everyone wanted “in” on that particular stupidity and the “could be a murder” beating didn’t exactly go on for hours. I won’t judge someone too harshly for not immediately leaping into the frey.

Hell, aside from the actual physical risk of volunteering to be outnumbered 3 to 1 (2 if Mr. Camera’s driver is in) there is the legal side. I don’t know where this was shot (Cali plates?) but getting into a situation where you have to injure others isn’t all blondes and blowjobs, especially if you don’t have a badge and the attached qualified immunity and indemnification against civil liability.

My only unqualified criticism is the whole “get up dude.”/start tugging on the guys arm strategy. The attackers had left. Put hazard lights on. Keep him still, hold c-spine if you are comfortable. Call 911/EMT and just talk to him.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Maybe I’m more - I don’t know, sensitive? - to shit like this ‘cause of the fucked up shit I’ve had happen to me and been involved with. Again, red shirt could’ve completely deserved the whoopin’, and I’m not saying I’d have started busting on those dudes either, but I don’t think I could just drive by that, stop, record the whole thing instead of try and break it up.

I also noticed how the jackass just starts tugging on that dude. My second thought was “this guy is a COMPLETE retard and is gonna hurt this dude worse”. That guy needed to lay there and wait on medical professionals to evaluate him, not be literally jerked around by some moron.

Also, I wonder what the legal ramifications are gonna be for all parties involved?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I wouldn’t get out of the car to help this guy. Take the chance of getting stabbed or shot or killed for some douche that I don’t know? Get the fuck out of here. Take the chance of ending up in jail myself because I got involved in something like this? No fucking way.[/quote]

I am completely in agreement with this. It sounds wrong to not help people (apparently) in need, but the risks and implications involved rarely make it worth it. Good real life example: my bouncer buddy (on duty) went to help out a girl getting beat up by her boyfriend (about 15 feet from the door he’s working). Ends up getting attacked by both(!) of them and promptly beats the dude up. Gets sued, bitch he was trying to help testifies against him. 2 year conditional sentence for assault.

Moral of the story is don’t get involved in other peoples’ shit.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Don’t be swayed by the way these guys look, either. Keep in mind that you don’t know what happened or how it started, and Mr. Pink Shirt could very well have started this fight, even if the other guys look like gang bangers and he looks like an office worker.

And if Pink Shirt was a fighter, maybe this scenario goes differently. Maybe he lays the guy out and that ends it… or maybe he still ends up getting his ass kicked in.

See, that’s the thing when you fight on the street. You could be a really, really good boxer, but if you don’t understand what an “interview” is in self-defense terms, if you don’t see the pre-attack indicators, you’ll be caught just as off-guard as anyone else.

This leads to the guy being far too close for you to use the art that you know - if I’m a boxer, and the guy, while he’s interviewing me, gets his hand on my shoulder and closes in and we’re between two cars like these two are, then it’s going to be hard to bring my skills to bear.

It’s like an army having tanks and fighter planes, but using the wrong tactics. Well, planes need to be in the air to work properly, and tanks have to be positioned correctly for them to matter in the battle. If the opponent gets the drop on you and your planes are still on the ground and the tanks are way out of position, it doesn’t matter what else happens, you’re always going to be playing catch-up because you lost the initiative and now you’re on the defensive, and you’ll never be able to get 100 percent of your force committed.

Same thing in the street. If I can’t maintain range and the guy beats me to it, I’ll always be trying to separate myself enough to get the punches off. Now I’ve got to separate first, and then punch, while the other guy just keeps up the attack and he’s got all the advantage.

In the case in the video, it’s the fact that this guy squares off to fight one person, and ends up getting two. When the second guy enters, Pink Shirt’s tactics MUST change - but he doesn’t realize that he’s fighting two guys until its too late to change. By then, the endgame has started and Pink Shirt isn’t even close to being able to handle it.
[/quote]

Just quoting this for the truth of it. Excellent post.

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I wouldn’t get out of the car to help this guy. Take the chance of getting stabbed or shot or killed for some douche that I don’t know? Get the fuck out of here. Take the chance of ending up in jail myself because I got involved in something like this? No fucking way.[/quote]

I am completely in agreement with this. It sounds wrong to not help people (apparently) in need, but the risks and implications involved rarely make it worth it. Good real life example: my bouncer buddy (on duty) went to help out a girl getting beat up by her boyfriend (about 15 feet from the door he’s working). Ends up getting attacked by both(!) of them and promptly beats the dude up. Gets sued, bitch he was trying to help testifies against him. 2 year conditional sentence for assault.

Moral of the story is don’t get involved in other peoples’ shit.
[/quote]

I have heard this specific scenario played more times than I can count - guy beating on girlfriend, Good Samaritan intervenes, and they both turn on Good Samaritan, Good Samaritan gets beatdown + charges.

Always, always, always let the cops handle this shit. Their word in court, plus their backup, are the two things that you don’t have that you DEFINITELY need.

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I wouldn’t get out of the car to help this guy. Take the chance of getting stabbed or shot or killed for some douche that I don’t know? Get the fuck out of here. Take the chance of ending up in jail myself because I got involved in something like this? No fucking way.[/quote]

I am completely in agreement with this. It sounds wrong to not help people (apparently) in need, but the risks and implications involved rarely make it worth it. Good real life example: my bouncer buddy (on duty) went to help out a girl getting beat up by her boyfriend (about 15 feet from the door he’s working). Ends up getting attacked by both(!) of them and promptly beats the dude up. Gets sued, bitch he was trying to help testifies against him. 2 year conditional sentence for assault.

Moral of the story is don’t get involved in other peoples’ shit.

[/quote]

Sort of true. The likelihood is that the videographers could have used a cell phone shortly after to call emergency services. I suppose if red shirt had any spinal injury moving him would have been stupid.

Here goes a story of something I was on the fence of getting involved in:

A few years ago I was out one March morning around day break to go and buy a take out coffee, this was sometimes a morning routine that I liked doing. The area of town I lived then was a bit chumpy, and it was very much an industrial town to begin with.

I rounded a corner and could her yelling from behind, so I thought to do my civic duty and take a look. Immediately upon going back around the corner I saw a woman fighting off a physical attack from a man. I was seriously worried and was observing to be sure. I wanted to run across the street to a pay phone, or maybe directly intervene first (I didn’t view threads on this board first).

Shortly after I started watching he gave her a bear hug, and I thought possibly it was a relationship row, so I continued to watch. He called her loudly a whore, but that is an expression overused for everyday purposes. She broke and ran towards the phone I had thought of and he came after her and blocked her.

At this point I was more convinced it was a relationship thing, but was still concerned and unsure what to do. the dispute gradually became one more of him excoriating her with her in tears and unphysical. finally I came over and said I noticed this dispute and asked her is she was his girlfriend. She said yes and he then told me to totally fuck off and mind my own business and fucking get lost, pretty much that.

I walked away convinced I had acted properly, I even think there was some chance the fact I was known to be watching helped deescalate things.

[quote]Khaine wrote:

I am completely in agreement with this. It sounds wrong to not help people (apparently) in need, but the risks and implications involved rarely make it worth it. Good real life example: my bouncer buddy (on duty) went to help out a girl getting beat up by her boyfriend (about 15 feet from the door he’s working). Ends up getting attacked by both(!) of them and promptly beats the dude up. Gets sued, bitch he was trying to help testifies against him. 2 year conditional sentence for assault.
[/quote]

Relationship shit is the worst. I’ve had family turn on me over intervening. I would say unless you plan on taking the girl for yourself be very careful.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Maybe I’m more - I don’t know, sensitive? - to shit like this ‘cause of the fucked up shit I’ve had happen to me and been involved with. Again, red shirt could’ve completely deserved the whoopin’, and I’m not saying I’d have started busting on those dudes either, but I don’t think I could just drive by that, stop, record the whole thing instead of try and break it up.
[/quote]

I can understand that desire, but my experiance has absolutely taken it out of me.

I mean this in ernest, and absolutely not as a dick measuring thing, but how much of the “fucked up shit” was “breaking it up” vs. “being part of”.

The reason I ask is that in my experience it takes a hell of a lot of bodies/muscle/force to break up an active fight. It is like attacking a fucking castle. You need to outnumber it 3 to 1 to even think about it. You can “break it up” before it starts, or after both parties are gassed/spent and the “winner” is happy to cement his “win” by stopping and the “loser” is happy for the reprieve with less, but doing it when it is still hot takes violence and plenty of it.

I think calling for help, honking, and yelling “5-o” or whatever the locals use would be about the wisest choice here. There is just too much physical and legal hazard for me to judge anyone harshly for not getting physically involved.

[quote]
I also noticed how the jackass just starts tugging on that dude. My second thought was “this guy is a COMPLETE retard and is gonna hurt this dude worse”. That guy needed to lay there and wait on medical professionals to evaluate him, not be literally jerked around by some moron.[/quote]
Yup, I know that skill at inflicting injuries and skill in managing them are not the same thing, but I really, REALLY doubt the ability of the dude with the camera to make a crisis better. I don’t need mister “DAAAAMN. Dude’s fucked up. Get up dude.” to be running to my aid. I am thinking he would be pretty much anti-help. As in, you have to send some actual help along with him, just to keep the situation from getting worse.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I wouldn’t get out of the car to help this guy. Take the chance of getting stabbed or shot or killed for some douche that I don’t know? Get the fuck out of here. Take the chance of ending up in jail myself because I got involved in something like this? No fucking way.[/quote]

I am completely in agreement with this. It sounds wrong to not help people (apparently) in need, but the risks and implications involved rarely make it worth it. Good real life example: my bouncer buddy (on duty) went to help out a girl getting beat up by her boyfriend (about 15 feet from the door he’s working). Ends up getting attacked by both(!) of them and promptly beats the dude up. Gets sued, bitch he was trying to help testifies against him. 2 year conditional sentence for assault.

Moral of the story is don’t get involved in other peoples’ shit.
[/quote]

I have heard this specific scenario played more times than I can count - guy beating on girlfriend, Good Samaritan intervenes, and they both turn on Good Samaritan, Good Samaritan gets beatdown + charges.

Always, always, always let the cops handle this shit. Their word in court, plus their backup, are the two things that you don’t have that you DEFINITELY need. [/quote]

Agreed.

And failing that, at LEAST one guy is on the “victim” come hell or high water. I would rather deal with someone who has 100 pounds on me by my lonesome than turn my back on the kind of woman who seems to wind up in this “things”.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I wouldn’t get out of the car to help this guy. Take the chance of getting stabbed or shot or killed for some douche that I don’t know? Get the fuck out of here. Take the chance of ending up in jail myself because I got involved in something like this? No fucking way.
[/quote]
What? When you look upon the festival of fail that is that video your first thought isn’t “However can I invite these children of knowledge into my life, for surely I will be the better for it?”

I am shocked.

Shocked I say.

Just kidding. If I was driving the video would be a lot shorter. I never would have stopped to watch the fight.

This is gospel.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
We were on same page with that assessment. I just made the notion that it’s not that simple as “helping” someone in that situation…i.e…and most won’t these days. But yeah…incidents like that…just call 911. [/quote]

Apologies if I came off a bit strong.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]666Rich wrote:
And if you do, best be carrying something like a knife etc, and have a good fucking lawyer.
[/quote]

I don’t disagree, but would like to add that even then you are buying into a “May beat the RAP, but you won’t beat the ride” situation. Arrest, even without a conviction(never mind a lesser charge) can still be a life altering experience.

In this case you would either be lining up against a group that has proven that they are “imminent danger of death and/or great bodily harm” with either fingernails and bad language or lethal force.

The former is ill advised. The latter sounds like I could be starring in my very own George Zimmerman esque thread in the Get a Life section, complete with harsh insults by DarkNinjaa.

And that would make me sad.

Cause I like Madame Ninjaa. She has spunk.

Regards,

Robert A

I used to be the guy with the badge and gun. I would probably have 1) called 911 / used my radio to call local law enforcement 2) gotten out of the car with badge visible and gun drawn at a healthy “rush me and die” range 3) put everyone face down on the asphalt 4) let local PD backup come sweep them up 5) been doing paperwork for the rest of the week.

Now that I don’t have the badge? I don’t even stop the car, just call 911 and report it with the nearest mile marker and which side of the highway they’re on.

On this topic in general:
It looks like every single person with real world training and experience who has weighed in on this has said that in a real world situation, you really don’t want to be fighting more than one guy. Oh yeah, and if you fight in the street, there’s almost always more than one guy.

Yes, there are ways to win a 6 on 1. I would be doing readers of this board a disservice if I tried to teach any of them on a message board, or if I ever even conveyed the impression that even a really good fighter has better than infinitesimal odds. I said it in the other thread and I’ll say it again here: physically fit adult trainees with no less than 8 weeks of intense (2-4 hrs/day, 5 days/week) physical preparation, with specific and progressive training leading up to their mob assault training, generally last about 30 seconds against 3 guys. With gloves, mouth guards, and head gear. Never, in my entire time in training, did I ever see or hear of anyone lasting more than 1:30 against 5 guys. That guy was 6’3", 220, a kodokan judo black belt, a former corrections officer, and a legend for putting down three instructors before succumbing (mostly via throws into walls, btw). It’s not impossible to survive a mob assault, but never should anyone reading this think there is even a fair chance, and anyone who voluntarily initiates one deserves a nice long stay in the ICU to work on their decision making skills.

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I used to be the guy with the badge and gun. I would probably have 1) called 911 / used my radio to call local law enforcement 2) gotten out of the car with badge visible and gun drawn at a healthy “rush me and die” range 3) put everyone face down on the asphalt 4) let local PD backup come sweep them up 5) been doing paperwork for the rest of the week.

Now that I don’t have the badge? I don’t even stop the car, just call 911 and report it with the nearest mile marker and which side of the highway they’re on.

On this topic in general:
It looks like every single person with real world training and experience who has weighed in on this has said that in a real world situation, you really don’t want to be fighting more than one guy. Oh yeah, and if you fight in the street, there’s almost always more than one guy.

Yes, there are ways to win a 6 on 1. I would be doing readers of this board a disservice if I tried to teach any of them on a message board, or if I ever even conveyed the impression that even a really good fighter has better than infinitesimal odds. I said it in the other thread and I’ll say it again here: physically fit adult trainees with no less than 8 weeks of intense (2-4 hrs/day, 5 days/week) physical preparation, with specific and progressive training leading up to their mob assault training, generally last about 30 seconds against 3 guys. With gloves, mouth guards, and head gear. Never, in my entire time in training, did I ever see or hear of anyone lasting more than 1:30 against 5 guys. That guy was 6’3", 220, a kodokan judo black belt, a former corrections officer, and a legend for putting down three instructors before succumbing (mostly via throws into walls, btw). It’s not impossible to survive a mob assault, but never should anyone reading this think there is even a fair chance, and anyone who voluntarily initiates one deserves a nice long stay in the ICU to work on their decision making skills.[/quote]

Such a fantastic post on many levels.

I read a lot about self defense for a variety of reasons, but besides it being just an interest of mine, as a journalist I can find myself in some pretty fuckin weird situations that have the capability of getting out of hand very quickly.

In a way, it’s the same circumstances as what Devildog is speaking on - while other people are running away from a situation, we’re running towards it.

A particular worry of mine is always the possibility of mob assault, especially when in foreign countries. It devolves into such a chaotic state SO quickly, and the guy who hits you and knocks you out may be some guy that’s not even involved, but just watching from the sidelines and pulls a kind of groupthink move and clocks you when you’re close enough and then doesn’t do anything else.

The focus is not on engaging, it’s in literally clearing the way so you can escape. If you do that by punching a guy and laying him out, great. If you do it by pushing past him (or them), great. But the focus is purely escape.

Again, to use a military analogy - you’re outnumbered six times over, nearly surrounded, and the other guy’s weaponry is way better. Only the stupidest general would say “Stand and fight.”

[quote]Robert A wrote:

I don’t disagree, but would like to add that even then you are buying into a “May beat the RAP, but you won’t beat the ride” situation. Arrest, even without a conviction(never mind a lesser charge) can still be a life altering experience.

Robert A[/quote]

I remember reading somewhere that for those who always carry guns, regard each trigger pull as automatically costing you between $3,000 and $5,000 right off the bat.

It really puts it in perspective for those who say “I’ll just carry a gun.” Hope your wallet is thick too, because you pull that trigger one time and you’re defending yourself in a criminal court to prove you were justified, and then in a civil case to prove it again.