T Nation

2 On 4 Off (Advice Please)


#1

Hello everyone. I've been researching the threads here on Bill Robert's 2 on 4 off steroid cycle and wanted to get some input on how to maximize the effectiveness of a run like this.

At this point in time i'm in a position to spend however much is needed to milk this cycle to the fullest.

So if you had no financial concern, what would be the beefiest cycle you could think of in this context? Of course considering HPTA recovery.


#2

I did a series of 2 on/5 off cycles a little over a year ago. Some tips:

  • Nail down your diet before you start. This should be a no-brainer since you are trying to gain lean muscle (I assume), but it bears repeating.

  • For a short cycle to be worth it, you need to do two things: a decent load of gear during the ‘ON’ portion, and to repeat this several times consecutively. One short cycle would be worthless. Each short cycle, I gained right around 10 pounds. After a brief PCT followed by a couple weeks completely off everything, I would have lost right at half of what I had gained. Over the course of three short cycles this put me up a little over 15 pounds, but this was spread over 4-5 months.

  • Decent load of gear: My cycles consisted of Cut Mix, a tri-blend of Tren Ace, Test P, and Mast P at 50mg each. I was shooting 1ml ED, so that came out to 1050mg per week, or just over a gram. I would call that a good target (right at or just above 1 gram per week), but I wouldn’t personally go below a gram. The whole point of a short cycle is to get in, hit it hard, and get off.

  • From reading what I could find from Bill Robert’s stuff, I was injecting everyday for 12 days, that gave my system 2 days for the short-esters to clear before starting Nolva. Nolva and Tren apparently don’t play well together, but from everything I have read that is referring to using them at the same time. A couple days after last stick, I had no issues.

  • Whatever type of program you are running, I would try and set it up so you have a pretty intense two weeks coinciding with the cycle. I was doing a modified 531 (modified by adding front squats as an accessory, and supersetting weighted pullups with military press and rows with bench), which is why I did 2 on/5 off - the 2 weeks on would be during the 3 x 3 and 5/3/1 weeks, when loading is the highest. Then I would go through a full 3 week cycle while off, followed by 3 x 5 week before starting again. Also, you will still see some ‘after effects’ during your off weeks. This was pretty cool, seeing my strength stay consistent and in some cases continue to climb after coming off. The only issue was the 5th week (last one before starting up again) I would start to feel like I was stalling out.

  • Just my opinion, but tren is very well suited for this type of approach, and I think it is also a good way to test the waters with tren if you haven’t used it before (this was my first go with it). You are using tren ace, so if you have any issues with sides that you can’t control/put up with, it’s easy to bail. If there are some sides you can’t control for whatever reason, it’s easier to put up with them since it is only a couple weeks. That being said, get some caber or prami to control the prolactin/progestin issues if you are going to use tren. I tried using a vitamin/mineral combo instead which ‘kind of’ worked, but I would still end up with a soft noodle part way through sex. When I use it in the future, I will definitely get the right stuff. Also, tren kills cardio, even during such short durations. I was able to do enough during my off periods that lack of conditioning training while on didn’t seem to hurt overall.

Not sure what else to say about the short cycles, they are pretty simple really, so long as you don’t mind sticking yourself everyday (again, it’s only for 12 days each time). Whatever you plan on using for a short cycle, the only real rule is to use short esters and plenty of them. This rules out quite a bit of the cabinet, but still leaves some excellent options. Just follow the same rules as for a longer cycle, with regards to AI and SERM usage. Since I was off for 5 weeks in between, I was only doing Nolva for 2 weeks (if I recall). I have never used HCG, even though I have heard it helps recovery quite a bit on ‘normal’ length (and longer) cycles. For the short cycles, I don’t feel it is necessary since you are on such a short amount of time.

One last note, about a month or so after my last short cycle, I felt like I had a sort of ‘crash’. Should have done bloods, but I didn’t know about the online blood lab sources at the time, so I kind of self-diagnosed and just did another PCT. In hindsight, I believe I only did the same 2 week PCT after my last one, when I should have done a full 4 week PCT. So that is my last tip, set yourself up for a full PCT at the end of the series.

If you have any specific questions, I’ll answer what I can. By no means do I consider myself an expert on gear, although I am one of very few people on this board who has done this protocol.


#3

Just reread your OP.

If I were to do this again (which I might), I would change a couple things. When I did mine in the past, I used a prepackaged blend of tren/prop/mast which obviously makes it hard to adjust individual dosages. So I would wither go with the same three compounds in separate vials, or possibly go with tren and dbol, which I have heard make an excellent combo.

Haven’t looked at the tren/dbol dosing yet, but using the same three compounds I would probably set it up something like this:

Days 1 - 12
Test P - 35mg ED (245mg per week)
Mast P - 55mg ED (385mg per week)
Tren Ace - 100mg ED (700mg per week)
Pramipexole - start low and work up to find sweet spot
Aromasin - 25mg Day 1, 12.5 or 25mg every 3-4 days (this would just be insurance, masteron supposedly acts as an AI in it’s own right)

PCT -
Nolvadex - 40mg days 15 - 21, 20mg 22 - 28

This puts it above the 1gram mark, which again, is highly recommended for this approach. I bought a couple extra vials before my last short cycle, enough to play with dosing. I liked the high tren/low test approach, I felt a lot better on it and it seemed to help mitigate a lot of the side effects.

EDIT: I would also do a full 4-week nolva PCT following my last cycle of the series, as I mentioned before. This would include the AI at the beginning (and keep it on hand in case of E2 issues, though I doubt there would be any), as well as whatever the proper protocol for coming off the prami to prevent any kind of prolactin/progestin rebound from occurring. I honestly don’t know if that even happens, but it stands to reason that it is possible. I’m not planning on doing this any time soon, so I haven’t looked into that yet.


#4

Great advice above.

My personal favorite actually goes all the way back to the second one I ever did, just adjusted up a bit on the trenbolone. Then 50 mg/day TA (100 mg frontload) for 12 days plus 50 mg/day (10 mg five times) throughout, now uprated on the trenbolone to 75 or 100 mg/day. When 100 mg/day, then I inject for just 11 days.

As mentioned already, the "on "weeks should be when ready to really hit the training.

Plenty of food! 1000 cal/day surplus over your usual maintenance, and with special post-emphasis workout.


#5

Hell yes. Thanks a million boatguy and Mr. Roberts. This was the thorough advice i was hoping for. I’m still rehabbing a shoulder injury so this cycle is intended to quickly recover lost strength and mass. Of course i’m waiting until i am fully healthy and in the rhythm of lifting regularly before i begin.

Interesting choice on the pramipexole, i was always lead to believe that Cabergoline was the superior choice due its more specific moa.

I will certainly do the 4 week PCT with Nolva. I’ve had minor gyro flare up from D-aspartic acid of all things so this seems prudent.

To clarify, the 4 week PCT would look like this —> 40mg Nolva (2 weeks) followed by 20mg Nolva (2 weeks)?


#6

It doesn’t take 2 weeks of 40 mg dosing to get levels where they need to be; the above one week as in the above post (Days 15-21) is plenty to reach needed levels.


#7

Noted and thank you. Then i will run the 20mg for the remaining 3 weeks or taper after the 2nd week. This is after several cycles as Boatguy suggested.