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2 Months After Cycle - Test Still Low

2 months after my first cycle.- Test levels are still low after PCT

Hi guys, just thought I’d drop an update on how my first cycle went.

Here’s the link to my first post back in June 06.
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1073495&pageNo=0#1073801

I followed it through with some adjustments.

Test E - 500mg/week (13 weeks)
Deca - 400mg/week (10 weeks)
Dbol - 30mg/day (and I dropped the dbol during the 3rd week because it was raising my BP and giving me an awful headache)

Results were great. My weight went from 185 up to 210 by the end of 13 weeks.
Squats - 350
Deads - 395
Bench - 290

Strength and size gains were incredible, I had a good clean diet with over 4000cals-4500cals /day.
Collegues at work were also noticing the gains and I had to change my wadrobe as I went up 2 shirt sizes.

I took A-Dex 0.5mgED during the cycle and 25mgED of Aromasin thru 4 weeks of PCT of Clomid and Nolva.

Now 2 weeks after PCT, I went for a blood test and everything looked fine except for my Test levels which were terribly low still.

Total Testosterone: 4.1 nmol/L (9.5 - 35.0)
SHBG: 23nmol/L (13-71)
Free Test: 92pmol/L (225-725)

Reference ranges are in brackets.

I went back and got a more comprehensive blood panel. From my conversations with the pathology lab nurse, my LH and FSH were within normal levels. Will post the results when they do come back.

I didn’t tell my doc about the AAS use however, he’s considering TRT if this doesn’t improve by next visit.

I think I’ve always had a low/normal range of testosterone from a blood test I had a year ago. Perhaps that was why I started feeling (right) when I started my first cycle.

Any thoughts on this guys?

You will no doubt get the " should a tapered" posters… with that said, recovery from your cycle takes longer than 4 weeks, most likely 6-8 weeks plus.

How much Nolva and Clomid on a daily basis? Did your balls shrink? How was you mood post cycle? How old are you?

I have been roundly criticized on HCG usage but w/ a 14 week cycle w/ Test/Deca and Dbol it’s not surprising your still shut down. At this point you can:

a) Do nothing and wait it out another 30 days and re-test. I would not even consider HRT until another 6-12 months goes by.
b) Run another Nolva/Clomid PCT.
c) Get some HCG and run it EOD at 500 ius for 10 days along w/ 100 MG of Clomid for 10-15 days and Nolva at 20 MGS ED for 30 days. I would run the Clomid at bedtime and the Nolva AM.
d) The other thing you might consider is running Alpha Male/TRIBEX. I use AM between cycles.

Next time, get some HCG and run it throughout the cycle at 250 to 500 ius EOD and stop it the last week of your cycle and start the Clomid and Nolva. HCG makes recovery so much easier if your not staying on all year.

My .02 worth.

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The deca is fucking you. DO NOT use replacement therapy. Doing so is basically abandoning all hope of ever recovering. You mine as well cut off your scrot and throw it in the trash if you do.

You are gonna get people telling you that 400mg of deca is mild, and since you “ran more test than deca” you should be ok. It’s all crap. 400mg of deca is plenty strong enough to work your ball bag over real good. Deca is hard as hell to recover from, but in time you will recover.

It’s going to take a certain number of months for it to clear sufficiently so it wont keep messing you up. Limp cock right? low sex drive? That’s from the deca and is a real bitch because deca is suppressive across 3 different pathways, and if that wasn’t enough, stays in your system a long time because of reestrification.

It’s going to take some time, probably run a few more pcts with nolva, and in the future, don’t ever touch deca durabolin again with a 10 foot dick. I don’t care how strong it made you, or how good you felt when on it- just remember what it’s doing to you now. Deca = castration.

[quote]Over40 wrote:

I have been roundly criticized on HCG usage but w/ a 14 week cycle w/ Test/Deca and Dbol it’s not surprising your still shut down. At this point you can:

[/quote]

Why the critisims of hCG?

[quote]Over40 wrote:
How much Nolva and Clomid on a daily basis? Did your balls shrink? How was you mood post cycle? How old are you?
[/quote]

Thanks for the reply Over40: To your questions above…

I was on 100mg Clomid and 20mg Nolva daily.
Yes, balls did shrink significantly towards the end of cycle.

Post cycle, I was moody for the first 2 weeks of PCT, then it went back to normal.
I feel pretty good most of the time and am still pretty aggressive at the gym.

I’m 26.

[quote]RoidEnthusiast wrote:
The deca is fucking you. DO NOT use replacement therapy. Doing so is basically abandoning all hope of ever recovering. You mine as well cut off your scrot and throw it in the trash if you do.

You are gonna get people telling you that 400mg of deca is mild, and since you “ran more test than deca” you should be ok. It’s all crap. 400mg of deca is plenty strong enough to work your ball bag over real good. Deca is hard as hell to recover from, but in time you will recover.

It’s going to take a certain number of months for it to clear sufficiently so it wont keep messing you up. Limp cock right? low sex drive? That’s from the deca and is a real bitch because deca is suppressive across 3 different pathways, and if that wasn’t enough, stays in your system a long time because of reestrification.

It’s going to take some time, probably run a few more pcts with nolva, and in the future, don’t ever touch deca durabolin again with a 10 foot dick. I don’t care how strong it made you, or how good you felt when on it- just remember what it’s doing to you now. Deca = castration. [/quote]

Agreed. It probably is the Deca that’s causing the suppression.
Had no idea it would last this long however, hence I ran the Test E for 3 extra weeks and thought that’ll be enough time for the Deca to clear my system by PCT.

Don’t exactly suffer from a ‘limp cock’, but sex drive is definitely down recently.

I’m gonna start on more Nolva for now.

More important than what the numbers say, how do you feel now? Do you feel like you did before the cycle? Worse?

[quote]newbeast wrote:
More important than what the numbers say, how do you feel now? Do you feel like you did before the cycle? Worse?[/quote]

I feel fine 90% of the time. I feel sorta like I did before the cycle. Am still holding the weights strong at the gym, just had to cut down on the total volume worked.

Your young, and will probably recover fine. I agree with roids that DECA can fuck you over. I will use it but only in short cycles and mostly the Pheynl Prop version.

If your testes recoverd your probably on the road to improvement, and if you mood improved after a couple of weeks you would think your coming back a bit. If it was me I would run the Clomid/Nolva.

Another thing that may be impacting your recovery is prolactin from the DECA. You could add some cabergoline at .5 mg 2 X a week for 4 weeks.

Here’s some info …

The clinical term for excessive release of prolactin is hyperprolactinemia. It is actually a relatively common disorder in humans. There are many causes that initiate the condition including prolactin-secreting tumors and therapy with certain drugs.
Interesting is that the use of progestin-like AAS such as nandrolone and trenbolone will usually result in an increase in prolactin secretion.

The employment of drugs such as cabergoline (0.25-0.5mg 2xW) bromocriptine (2.5-5.0mg/d) or mirtazapine for 2-4 weeks post use normally brings prolactin levels back to normal or below. This results in increased HPTA function, improved determent from accumulative female pattern fat and significantly heightened libido.

Males that experience hyperprolactinemia commonly develop hypogonadism (the shut down of the HPTA) with decreased sperm production, decreased sex drive and impotence. Those affected normally show breast enlargement (gynecomastia), but very rarely actually lactate. The gyno can initially manifest itself as an increase in fatty tissue under the lower pectorals and a puffy appearance to the areola and nipple.

A simple blood test for serum prolactin levels is commonly employed to evaluate the degree of potential feminization a male can or is experiencing. The lab results are quite simple to read, though a trained professional should interpret the results.
Normal Levels:
A. Adult: <20 ng/ml (including males)
B. Newborn: 100 to 300 (falls below 20 after 6 weeks) C. Pregnancy

  1. First Trimester: <80 ng/ml
  2. Second trimester: <160 ng/ml
  3. Third Trimester: <400 ng/ml
    *References: Bakerman (1984) ABCs of Lab Data, p. 342

Don’t worry to much about it right now, and at your age don’t resign yourself to live the rest of your life on artificial T. IT IS THE DECA. I had the same thing happen on my first cycle about 6 years ago (at age 21) I was naive and made up my own 10 week cycle- 400 mg Deca/ week and 20 mg winstrol/ day (no test). Well, I had great gains, a solid 16 pounds, but at the end I was shut down hard. All I had for PCT was novaldex, which frankly did nothing in my situation. I felt O.K. physically, but mentally depressed for 4-5 months (I had no blood tests, but I’m pretty sure I was shut down cold for most of this time.) I really didn’t loose much of my gains, but it sucked, especially because I didn’t know what was wrong with me at the time. Needless to say, eventually, after 4 or 5 months, I got back to normal. I will never use Deca again for two reasons. 1) IMHO it shuts you down harder than testosterone and 2) Because it is so long acting, you are inevitably going to hit a point after the end of your cycle where you have enough Deca still in your system to keep you shut down but not enough to even come close replacing the feeling even your natural test levels give you, regardless of PCT.

wow I have never had a problem with deca…guess i’m lucky…HCG is great why would you get shit over taking hcg?

I ran 600Test/ 400Deca for 8 weeks and then swapped the Deca for Tren at week 8…75 every other day. 20 mg Nolva the whole time. Gained 18 lbs and not too much water…crashed hard at week two after going off at week 12 and before starting PCT…depressed, weak, lost 6 lbs…started HCG 5000/week at week 3 PCT. Started regaining it all after 2nd shot. Third shot yesterday and honestly I feel awesome again, not the same as being on, but gained back 3 of the 6 that I lost, strength has recovered and joint soreness that re-emerged after going off disappeared. I’m 41 and at 183 now and in my opinion, if I had just stayed on the Nolva only, i would have drug on for months and probably fallen back to the scrawny 169 that I started with. I know people get away with it, but it seems pointless to not kick your system back into gear as soon as the T levels are ready. Physically I could feel the HCG kick in just a few days ago, midway between 2nd and third shots.

[quote]T-38 wrote:
I ran 600Test/ 400Deca for 8 weeks and then swapped the Deca for Tren at week 8…75 every other day. 20 mg Nolva the whole time. Gained 18 lbs and not too much water…crashed hard at week two after going off at week 12 and before starting PCT…depressed, weak, lost 6 lbs…started HCG 5000/week at week 3 PCT. Started regaining it all after 2nd shot. Third shot yesterday and honestly I feel awesome again, not the same as being on, but gained back 3 of the 6 that I lost, strength has recovered and joint soreness that re-emerged after going off disappeared. I’m 41 and at 183 now and in my opinion, if I had just stayed on the Nolva only, i would have drug on for months and probably fallen back to the scrawny 169 that I started with. I know people get away with it, but it seems pointless to not kick your system back into gear as soon as the T levels are ready. Physically I could feel the HCG kick in just a few days ago, midway between 2nd and third shots.

[/quote]

Why take so much HCG when such high doses are known to down regulate your LH receptors? If you plan to transition to low dose HCG very soon, your post then serves to mislead others.

Where did you find that dose recommended?

When you get off the HCG, your LH receptors will not be able to work with the LH that you will produce.

250IU HCG OED SQ has been shown to maintain baseline testicular function. Perhaps a bump in dosage just to start, but there is no research to support that.

[quote]superchumbo wrote:

Agreed. It probably is the Deca that’s causing the suppression.
Had no idea it would last this long however, hence I ran the Test E for 3 extra weeks and thought that’ll be enough time for the Deca to clear my system by PCT.

Don’t exactly suffer from a ‘limp cock’, but sex drive is definitely down recently.

I’m gonna start on more Nolva for now. [/quote]

You will test positive for Deca in your system for over a YEAR. You did the right thing by running several extra weeks of test. Some people do experience what you did with Deca and thus some people are very against Deca. Personally, I think Deca is one of the three best components out there and the stack you ran IMO is as good as it gets. I mean damn you gained 25 lbs what more could a person want.

As mentioned above there’s a decent chance that in another month your levels will self regulate. I’m not so certain how much you wanna start jacking around now. Also although I prefer nolvadex over clomid myself during pct. For endogenous test stimulation clomid works where nolvadex doesn’t.