2.5x - 3x Body Weight in Protein

Almost all people will say anything 2x BW in protein daily is excessive, but I tried 2.5x - 3x BW in protein (500 - 600 grams daily) for 8 months and saw very significant gains with it granted I had just started weightlifting, but even for that, most would consider it a lot. Eventually, those 500 - 600 grams dropped down to 2x - 2.4ishx BW.

The protein I took in came from 27 eggs (9 eggs for 3 different meals until I got sick of them after about 4 months, then substituted it with more meat, milk, etc), lots of meat and whole milk, yogurt, rolled oats, natural peanut butter sandwiches on whole wheat, and protein shakes. Has anyone else tried not necessarily this diet specifically, but the amount of protein per lb of bodyweight???

Most people who are not body builders say anything more than BW is excessive. Even here, I’ve only seen 1.25xBW recommended for naturals.

You just can not make more muscle in a day than that provides, and you don’t want to get your body in a state where it’s using protein as its primary source of fuel, which is probably what it’s doing right now.

I am in this typ of nutrition at the moment but not as that excessive. That means not 500-600g Protein. I eat ca 300 - 400g Protein, good fat and low carb. Since I do it not long yet I can`t tell you if it works for me too. Maybe it will.
In some weeks I could tell.

You ate 30 eggs a day for 4months? How is your cholesterol? 600 grams of protein a day IS excessive, did you have trouble shitting? That seems more like waste of money more then anything, how many caloriers were you getting-calories would be more important then 600 grams of protein-

1g per bodyweight is all you really need, studies have shown you actually might need less around .8 or so per bodyweight.

You need balanced diet-hah cliche- not all protein, eating all that protein probably forced you to eat more though and the extra calories probably benefited you more then the protein.

2.5*BW in pounds in grams of protein for naturals = 200 lbs natural would take 500 grams per day

3 times BW in grams for enhanced trainers giving it up to 600 grams of protein per day for a 200 lbs trainer. These are extreme amounts. But do you want to grow?

400 grams of protein per day is baseline.

These numbers are from intensemuscle.com and Dante Trudel - maybe the best and most complete system right now - DC training.

So when someone says 1.5 times BW i wonder if these people even train at all? Or are they in the tone-up crowd?

Take home point? Chug it down!

funmetal

PS not interested by answers from emaciated stick-men.

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461429

here is article on it, basically says all you need is 1g per bodyweight.

[quote]shizen wrote:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461429

here is article on it, basically says all you need is 1g per bodyweight. [/quote]

Ok, go for it! I would like to see you gain 20 lbs of muscle in a year on that diet. Yeah!

My God…

…what the rest of diet like?

I would stay at the low end of that like D recommend (2.5). That has worked great for a lot of people. I think 3.5 would a little excessive.

I also want to throw out (not calling you out Shizen, just throwing this out b/c I just learned it and it will still apply somewhat to eggs) but bloow cholesterol levels are not raised by the cholesterol in foods even remotely like saturated fats. So, cholesterol isn’t evil on labels. And saturated fat isn’t either…but if you have high cholesterol thats what you should be watching.

[quote]funmetal wrote:
shizen wrote:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461429

here is article on it, basically says all you need is 1g per bodyweight.

Ok, go for it! I would like to see you gain 20 lbs of muscle in a year on that diet. Yeah!

My God…[/quote]

Agree on your point, though you might be able to add more than 20lbs a year, but all down to you level of development and the individual.

I’ve seen a pretty big difference in eating more than 2g per lb BW in protein per day. I tend not to rely on certain studies so much as actualy real world results, but I’m usually in the range of 1.5g - 2.5g per day in protein.

Is this something I can / will do long term? To me bodybuilding ie weight training is something I plan on doing for many many years. Don’t do anything you can’t do long term. Eating that much protein probably isn’t something that will serve you well in the “long run”

[quote]funmetal wrote:
2.5*BW in pounds in grams of protein for naturals = 200 lbs natural would take 500 grams per day

So when someone says 1.5 times BW i wonder if these people even train at all? Or are they in the tone-up crowd?
[/quote]

Let’s say all the non-muscle building maintenance activity of your body takes 1xBW protein a day (which is a huge overestimate), and the rest goes exclusively towards building muscle. That would leave 300 grams a day for your 200 poound guy. That’s 1200 calories a day, or roughly a pound of muscle every two days? Did you gain 180 pounds of muscle last year? No? I wonder if these 500 grams of protein people are training at all… Seriously, that’s much much more than your body can possibly use, which means not only are you wasting money, but you’re going to be using protein for fuel, which is not an optimal situation. Good luck to your kidneys, as well.

[quote]funmetal wrote:
shizen wrote:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461429

here is article on it, basically says all you need is 1g per bodyweight.

Ok, go for it! I would like to see you gain 20 lbs of muscle in a year on that diet. Yeah!

My God…[/quote]

Yea mate thats fucking great eh. Cause you know, most people can gain 20 lbs of muscle per year after year. and even better, they can do it without any pharmaceuticals.

OH WAIT…WHAT?
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1806448
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1505087
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1765176

edit: justf or the hell of it. http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/1/498

So basically you’re jsut being an asshole because he’s enhanced?

I love people who won’t change shit without a study and an article.

Why don’t people talk to bodybuilders who have firsthand experience?..

I just read a study that says for optimal muscle gains we need at MOST 1g/lb.

Shove your study, I know tons of guys who’ve done it both ways and always take the higher protein route. First of all, alot of those studies are flawed as shit. Second of all, what happens in a lab or in rats or in a small population of individuals does not mean its the end all be all in the real world.

People are incredible.

Yoga roots? Why would that matter…its not like if you cut down your protein all of a sudden your body is gonna throw away all your muscle because its ‘adapted’. It’ll just adapt again.

A pound of muscle is 80% water, so at most 0.2 pounds of protein. The cell membranes are fat so it’s not pure protein either.

So say you gain 2 pounds of muscle a week (which is very aggressive gain rate). That equals to 0.4 pounds of additional protein needed over maintance to build those muscles. This is equal to 181g PER WEEK of additional protein over maintenance to give 2 pouns of muscle. Most people don’t gain 2 pounds a month, although that would be a more realistic goal. Of course you want more than needed for nitrogen balance, satiety, etc. But I doubt extreme amounts are going to increase the rate at which you grow muscle.

You can’t force muscle growth with additional protein. Obviously if you are lacking protein, it’s going to slow down grow as it becomes the limiting factor. But a child is not going to grow faster or taller if you feed him more protein. It’s the same idea.

You could argue that drinking enough water is just as important as protein since they are 80% water after all, yet you never see this mentioned. I doubt you will gain much if you are chronically dehydrated.

EDIT:

27 large eggs is about ~170g of protein (6.26g of protein per egg for large eggs) which is not eccessive for the protein. It is probably for egg yolk though. Are you sure you are not confusing grams of protein with grams of protein rich foods? 100g of meat = 20g of protein for the very lean meats. 100g is like a 4 ounce piece of meat.

So to get 500g of protein, you would need to eat like 88 ounces of lean meat.

My suggestion would be to vary your protein sources. various types of meat, fish, see food, eggs, some dairay if you can digest it and maybe a good supplement.

People around here seem to spend more time thinking about what they CANT do then actually doing what they can.

As far as high protein intake goes, which would you rather do? Eat more than what your body needs or not eat enough?

[quote]MikiB wrote:
funmetal wrote:
shizen wrote:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461429

here is article on it, basically says all you need is 1g per bodyweight.

Ok, go for it! I would like to see you gain 20 lbs of muscle in a year on that diet. Yeah!

My God…

Yea mate thats fucking great eh. Cause you know, most people can gain 20 lbs of muscle per year after year. and even better, they can do it without any pharmaceuticals.

OH WAIT…WHAT?
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1806448
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1505087
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1765176

edit: justf or the hell of it. http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/1/498
[/quote]

I’m flattered.

Yes I’ve done steroids. I was in fact eating too little protein. Just 250 grams per day. Now that I’m doing it natural for the last 4 months I am eating 400 grams of protein per day and have very good gains. Also training DC style of course.

Eating that much protein is for me impossible without supplementing with powders. I also have meat in my office drawer that I eat as frequently as I drink my green tea. Well not really. 4-5 cups of green tea and two 20 gram protein meals of spam each day :wink: It all adds up.

DC diet?

High protein like 60 grams per meal minimum.
Low sugar except around training. PWO is Surge with added protein. You can eat more sugar but I’m very sugar sensitive.
Cardio each time I train after the training right now just 20 minutes steady state bike. Have to up cardio to at least 2 more session per week on non-lifting days.
No sugars after 18:00.

This is all DC style diet and if interested look it up. Plenty on the net.

Oh yes. My steroid experiments have taught me that nutrition is KING! What you eat and how much is all the difference, not how much you inject into your ass.

funmetal

Great work guys, your on a bodybuilding website suggesting that high protein intake is bad. Now I’ve seen it all. 500-600 grams is probably high, but the OP was gaining weight because of the calories he was taking in. Would it be better for him to eat those 400 extra grams of carbs a day? what would be better 500-600 grams of protein and 200 carbs or 150 grams protein and 650 grams carbs? IMO when in doubt eat a steak, if your body doesn’t need the protein it will not use it and you’ll shit it out, no harm done.

[quote]ungs9 wrote:
Great work guys, your on a bodybuilding website suggesting that high protein intake is bad. Now I’ve seen it all. 500-600 grams is probably high, but the OP was gaining weight because of the calories he was taking in. Would it be better for him to eat those 400 extra grams of carbs a day? what would be better 500-600 grams of protein and 200 carbs or 150 grams protein and 650 grams carbs? IMO when in doubt eat a steak, if your body doesn’t need the protein it will not use it and you’ll shit it out, no harm done.
[/quote]

I doubt he eats 500g of protein a day that’s like at least 12 protein shakes or 88 ounces of lean meat. I doubt he can afford to eat that much a day unless he is Warren Buffet.

[quote]goya wrote:
You can’t force muscle growth with additional protein. Obviously if you are lacking protein, it’s going to slow down grow as it becomes the limiting factor.
[/quote]

You may not force muscle growth with additional protein, but why shortchange yourself by limiting your protein intake to something suggested in a study, which varies from person to person?

The point of a growth phase is to have a surplus of nutrients (carbs/protein/fat) and you body decides what to use and what not to use. You may grow well on 1.2g per lb, but you may grow even better on 1.5g.

It’s all a process of trial and error which people need to use to find what works optimally for them.

[quote]rsg wrote:
goya wrote:
You can’t force muscle growth with additional protein. Obviously if you are lacking protein, it’s going to slow down grow as it becomes the limiting factor.

You may not force muscle growth with additional protein, but why shortchange yourself by limiting your protein intake to something suggested in a study, which varies from person to person?

The point of a growth phase is to have a surplus of nutrients (carbs/protein/fat) and you body decides what to use and what not to use. You may grow well on 1.2g per lb, but you may grow even better on 1.5g.

It’s all a process of trial and error which people need to use to find what works optimally for them.[/quote]

1.5g is still a lot less than 3g per pound of body weight. But I suspect the difference is mostly calories and not the protein itself. It could be important in a low carb diet as the additional protein not used for muscle growth is broken down to glucose for energy.