T Nation

1st Cycle: Would Like Input


#1

Hi guys,
I am considering starting my first cycle of AAS. I have done extensive research into it and have familiarized myself quite well. Im 6'0 190 lbs with 8% body fat. Here's my outline of my considered cycle:
Week 1-10 Test Enanthate 400mg each week
Week 1-15 Nolvadex 20mg each day
Week 12-15 Clomid

For PCT:
Day1 300mg Clomid + 20mg Nolvadex
Day 2-11 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolvadex
Day12-21 50mg Clomid + 20mg Nolvadex

Ok, now here is where I think I may receive some criticism. I am 21 years old. However, I have been training for about 5 now and follow a very strict routine, as I wrestle NCAA Division I. I have never done any AAS because I get blood tested, however I recently got accepted into medical school, and thus I will not be wrestling anymore. As a result, I will not be required to take routine drug tests and can focus more on body building. So I understand you taking my age into consideration when you comment on this cycle. I'm open to all advice, even including not doing AAS at all. Looking forward to what you guys say!


#2

You should probably post your lifting stats and history. That said, the cycle you’ve planned looks relatively decent. 21 is young, but you’re mature enough to make that decision. Personally, I waited until I was a lot older but in my books you’re starting in a much better place than the typical 18-19 year old that’s taking OTC oral PHs / designer supplements.

A few things though. Firstly, you’d be wise to pick up an aromatase inhibitor (arimidex, letro, or even aromasin) to use on cycle instead of nolva. They allow for much superior management of overall estrogen levels than do SERMs. Your E2 level may rise considerably on cycle (though at 400mg test E it might be surprisingly stable… it’s very much an individual thing).

As for PCT, IMO you’d be better off just sticking to nolva. The dual SERM practice just seems like overkill, and I’m not a big believer in clomid either. My personal opinion… others will see things differently.

Finally, you might consider going a little shorter. Admittedly most of us have run cycles of 10 or more weeks at some point, but there is a lot of logic in using shorter cycles, recovering fully faster, and then hitting the horse again a little sooner. Because you know that you’re not going to just do one cycle…


#3

Would you recommend shortening the cycle of test enth down from 10 weeks to 8 weeks? Or even further, perhaps 6 weeks? With regards to lifting history, I have been lifting weights since I was 16, and have been in brazilian jiu jitsu for 12 years and wrestling for 10 years. I keep a relatively healthy lifestyle, drinking extremely on rare occasions. I feel I have the mental capacitance and maturity to be able to handle AAS.


#4

I think 7-8 weeks is a decent starting point for test E, given that you’ve really got another two weeks of relatively high level test in your system following your last shot.

Make sure you get your diet spot on… that’s where the results really come from. Don’t skimp on the groceries and try to keep it relatively clean.

Sounds like you have a good background. It wouldn’t hurt you to wait another couple of years, but frankly I’m not feeling particularly argumentative at the moment. Obviously AAS use involves some risks, both in the short and long-term. By using them responsibly and backing off when necessary, you can mitigate a lot of these risks. You’d also be doing yourself a huge favor by getting bloodwork done *before you cycle for the first time. It can only benefit you in the future to know what sort of baseline values you had before starting AAS use.


#5

If you are going to run your cycle shorter, I would suggest a slightly higher dosage per week. Say, 8-9 weeks at 600mg/w. You should see fantastic results from this and, provided you run your AI correctly, side effects should be at a minimum. You can get in, get out, recover pretty quickly, and be thinking about your next cycle during PCT.

As was stated, you should be running an AI on cycle. Arimidex is a good choice for less experienced users because it is very effective but tends not to drive estrogen too low, as a stronger compound like letrozole can.

I don’t have any personal experience with Clomid. Heard too many horror stories about the emotional nightmare it can become. However, some people seem to get on with it very well. My suggestion would be to run on or the other (nolva or clomid) to see how you react to each. Ideally, have both on hand so that if you cannot handle one you can switch.

Overall not a bad first post. Welcome to the steroid forum.


#6

If bodybuilding is just a hobby for you. I would suggest you to compele med school first. Use AAS after you are a proper MD.


#7

Thanks for all the responses. I think I will take your advice and reduce the cycle to 7 or 8 weeks, while increasing the dosage to either 500 mg or 600 mg, depending on how I feel with the 600 mg. I will actually be getting several physicals over the next few months for wrestling, so I will have a significant amount of knowledge about my body leading up to the cycle. I will pick up some Arimidex to have on hand as well, in addition to the clomid and nolva I have. Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciated.


#8

[quote]Joeykk wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. I think I will take your advice and reduce the cycle to 7 or 8 weeks, while increasing the dosage to either 500 mg or 600 mg, depending on how I feel with the 600 mg. I will actually be getting several physicals over the next few months for wrestling, so I will have a significant amount of knowledge about my body leading up to the cycle. I will pick up some Arimidex to have on hand as well, in addition to the clomid and nolva I have. Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciated.[/quote]

No, he meant get the Anastrazole for use during the cycle - not just on hand, and when it comes to SERMS then ideally it would be great to have both tamoxifen and chomiphene ‘on hand’ so you can choose tamoxifen if the clomiphene gives you issue.

My opinion is that while not all suffer from clomiphene’s potential sides, why risk it? Tamox is just as effective in stimulating the secretion of LH and it is more potent too - meaning that you don’t need as much (which i suspect is the reason for clomiphene giving higher side effects).

It would also be in your interest to frontload the cycle now too. It will make a difference to results but not to your recovery (in a negative way).

:slight_smile:


#9

[quote] Brook wrote:
Joeykk wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. I think I will take your advice and reduce the cycle to 7 or 8 weeks, while increasing the dosage to either 500 mg or 600 mg, depending on how I feel with the 600 mg. I will actually be getting several physicals over the next few months for wrestling, so I will have a significant amount of knowledge about my body leading up to the cycle. I will pick up some Arimidex to have on hand as well, in addition to the clomid and nolva I have. Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciated.

No, he meant get the Anastrazole for use during the cycle - not just on hand, and when it comes to SERMS then ideally it would be great to have both tamoxifen and chomiphene ‘on hand’ so you can choose tamoxifen if the clomiphene gives you issue.

My opinion is that while not all suffer from clomiphene’s potential sides, why risk it? Tamox is just as effective in stimulating the secretion of LH and it is more potent too - meaning that you don’t need as much (which i suspect is the reason for clomiphene giving higher side effects).

It would also be in your interest to frontload the cycle now too. It will make a difference to results but not to your recovery (in a negative way).

:)[/quote]

This is exactly what I meant, yes, thanks Brook.

Interestingly, I was also going to mention frontloading, but I forgot to add it.

Wait a minute…just what the hell else do you know about what I was going to say…?


#10

For the frontloading, what dosage do you suggest?
Is this about accurate: 500 mg on day one, 250 mg on day two, a day off and then 250 milligrams every third day for the cycleâ??s duration. The front load is 1000 milligrams within the first four days.


#11

[quote]Joeykk wrote:
For the frontloading, what dosage do you suggest?
Is this about accurate: 500 mg on day one, 250 mg on day two, a day off and then 250 milligrams every third day for the cycleâ??s duration. The front load is 1000 milligrams within the first four days. [/quote]

You can make the first day the frontload. Bill Roberts has given this formula for calculating the total first injection dose:
((weekly dose x half life) / days in week) + interval dose.

If you inject 250 mg every three days (as opposed to twice a week), you’ll be using roughly 583 mg / week, so calculate accordingly.

[quote]mephistopheles wrote:
If bodybuilding is just a hobby for you. I would suggest you to compele med school first. Use AAS after you are a proper MD. [/quote]

There is some logic to this, for reasons beyond simply focusing on school atm.

Once you’ve entered a profession - ie. graduated, passed the boards and any qualifying moral character / background checks etc… - you’re considered vested, at least in the US. If for some awful reason you run into legal troubles, you’ll have some degree of due process in defending your license. You’ll certainly be penalized, but it’s far from the virtually automatic DQ that arises if you’re caught before being licensed.


#12

[quote]whotookmyname wrote:

Once you’ve entered a profession - ie. graduated, passed the boards and any qualifying moral character / background checks etc… - you’re considered vested, at least in the US. If for some awful reason you run into legal troubles, you’ll have some degree of due process in defending your license. You’ll certainly be penalized, but it’s far from the virtually automatic DQ that arises if you’re caught before being licensed.[/quote]

I actually have been thinking the same thing, which is why I am not 100% certain I will run the cycle anyways. I will continue to think about it since it is a significant commitment.


#13

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Brook wrote:
Joeykk wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. I think I will take your advice and reduce the cycle to 7 or 8 weeks, while increasing the dosage to either 500 mg or 600 mg, depending on how I feel with the 600 mg. I will actually be getting several physicals over the next few months for wrestling, so I will have a significant amount of knowledge about my body leading up to the cycle. I will pick up some Arimidex to have on hand as well, in addition to the clomid and nolva I have. Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciated.

No, he meant get the Anastrazole for use during the cycle - not just on hand, and when it comes to SERMS then ideally it would be great to have both tamoxifen and chomiphene ‘on hand’ so you can choose tamoxifen if the clomiphene gives you issue.

My opinion is that while not all suffer from clomiphene’s potential sides, why risk it? Tamox is just as effective in stimulating the secretion of LH and it is more potent too - meaning that you don’t need as much (which i suspect is the reason for clomiphene giving higher side effects).

It would also be in your interest to frontload the cycle now too. It will make a difference to results but not to your recovery (in a negative way).

:slight_smile:

This is exactly what I meant, yes, thanks Brook.

Interestingly, I was also going to mention frontloading, but I forgot to add it.

Wait a minute…just what the hell else do you know about what I was going to say…?
[/quote]

Are you sure you want me to say in front of everyone?? :confused:


#14

[quote]For the frontloading, what dosage do you suggest?
Is this about accurate: 500 mg on day one, 250 mg on day two, a day off and then 250 milligrams every third day for the cycleâ??s duration. The front load is 1000 milligrams within the first four days.
[/quote]

FWIW, I am currently running my first ever cycle, and I opted to frontload as well. I did it all in the first 4 days as you have mentioned, and FL’d 500 on Day 1, and then 500 on Day 4, then continued with 250 E3D. I have seen incredible results, IMO, thus far. I am exactly 4 weeks in, to the day, and have gained right at 20 lbs, all while keeping fat gain to a suprisingly low minimum, and staying at around 10% or below BF. I am like you in the respect that I wasn’t sure if I was going to go with 8-10 weeks. I am still on the fence. I am charting my progress, and if my gains have plateaued by week 8, I will probably end the cycle so as not to risk more sides for a pound or two.


#15

I prefer to frontload in such a fashion that you achieve peak levels by the beginning of day 2.

250mg E3D is 583mg/wk.

IIRC 700mg on day 1 followed by 250mg E3D thereafter will suffice perfectly.


#16

[quote]ibedatbo wrote:

FWIW, I am currently running my first ever cycle, and I opted to frontload as well. I did it all in the first 4 days as you have mentioned, and FL’d 500 on Day 1, and then 500 on Day 4, then continued with 250 E3D. I have seen incredible results, IMO, thus far. I am exactly 4 weeks in, to the day, and have gained right at 20 lbs, all while keeping fat gain to a suprisingly low minimum, and staying at around 10% or below BF. I am like you in the respect that I wasn’t sure if I was going to go with 8-10 weeks. I am still on the fence. I am charting my progress, and if my gains have plateaued by week 8, I will probably end the cycle so as not to risk more sides for a pound or two.[/quote]

I actually am considering the same path. I will take it an monitor my gains, and will use that to judge whether I keep the cycle longer or not.