T Nation

1st Cycle Teething Issues

Hi everyone,

Recently I posted up a cycle (http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1699110) I had written up, with the aim of reducing body fat, preserving muscle and gaining lean mass. After the help of a few members, the cycle has been changed and hopefully finalized (still open to suggestions.)

The cycle:
Weeks 1-3 Winstrol 50mg/day
Weeks 6-8 Winstrol 50mg/day (total 6 weeks.)
Weeks 1-8 Test Prop 100mg/every other day
Weeks 1+2 Clenbuterol Pyramid scheme.
Weeks 5+6 Clenbuterol Pyramid scheme. MCG per day 20/20/20/40/40/40/60/60/60 (total 4 weeks.)
Weeks 1-8 Proviron 50mg/day

PCT:
Week 9 40mg/day nolvadex
Week 10 30mg/day nolvadex
Week 11 20mg/day nolvadex
Week 12 10mg/day nolvadex

I have some questions:

Clen: Is there a problem with running the Clen for another 2 weeks during PCT?

Diet: As my goal is to lose fat and put on muscle, I must strike a balance in terms of calories. Should I keep the calories slightly higher, but very clean? Or keep them low? How will this affect my goals of loose fat/gain lean muscle/ preserve muscle? I already hope to be eating 7 high protein meals a day.

Equipment: Although I have found a source of sterile needles/gauges in Australia, I cannot find a source for sterile multi-use vials. Can anyone help?

Other than that, is there anything I have missed, any other relevant considerations?

Thanks!
LiftEatSleep.

Clen: overall, clen isn’t too bad during pct. I like to keep it low though.

Diet: tough call, only you know your body enough to say for sure without more info. I would raise my calories by 25% or so, but thats just me(I average around 3000-3500 a day as it is, and still have problems keeping weight on). My metabolism is a bitch. Also, keep it clean, you will be much happier with your results.

Equipment: try one of these, hope they help.
http://www.gpzservices.com/index.htm
http://www.researchsupply.net/
http://www.kaotikchemistry.com/

Thanks for that.
Can anyone else contribute in terms of my questions.

I don’t understand why you’re separating “preserve muscle” and “gain lean mass” into two separate goals.

I also never have understood the term “clean calories.” What makes a calorie dirty in the first place?

You’re not really giving any information on your diet at all. A calorie is not just a calorie. What’s your planned macronutrient breakdown? What’s your meal schedule look like? What supplements did you have in mind?

All the AAS in the world won’t suit your goals unless your diet is set. You have a lot of questions, but you’re not giving a lot of information about yourself to help answer those questions.

How tall are you? How much do you weigh? What’s your bodyfat percentage? What’s your metabolism like? How old are you? Have you used AAS before? What’s your activity level?

Despite how willing most members are to toss advice left and right as if it were all written in stone and applied to everybody, it’s a horrible misconception.

[quote]Contrl wrote:
I don’t understand why you’re separating “preserve muscle” and “gain lean mass” into two separate goals.

I also never have understood the term “clean calories.” What makes a calorie dirty in the first place?

You’re not really giving any information on your diet at all. A calorie is not just a calorie. What’s your planned macronutrient breakdown? What’s your meal schedule look like? What supplements did you have in mind?

All the AAS in the world won’t suit your goals unless your diet is set. You have a lot of questions, but you’re not giving a lot of information about yourself to help answer those questions.

How tall are you? How much do you weigh? What’s your bodyfat percentage? What’s your metabolism like? How old are you? Have you used AAS before? What’s your activity level?

Despite how willing most members are to toss advice left and right as if it were all written in stone and applied to everybody, it’s a horrible misconception.[/quote]

Preserve mass- Retain the muscle mass I already have.
Gain lean mass- Put on more lean mass (without fat)

Clean calories- A diet with less calories and more protein, as opposed to a diet with plenty of calories and less protein (percentage wise.)

Planned macro-nutrient break down is Protein 60 Fat 20 Carb 20 am planning to have 7 meals a day, 6 on a bad day.

5 ft 7, about 200 pounds @ 17-18% bodyfat.
My metabolism is average, I am 22 years old, I have not used AAS before and in terms of activity, I train at the gym 3-4 times a week heavy weights, other than that, have moderate activity.

Thanks.

Have found that Clen should be fine to run during PCT.

Wouldn’t mind some advice on diet.

for “preserved muscle”… i do not know anyone who has LOST muscle they already have by taking AAS. thats just a nonfactor… for diet advice i STRONGLY STRONGLY suggest you check out the anabolic diet post. it works both for losing and gaining weight… it will help tremendously with your concerns about lean mass gains. i could go on forever, but just read up on it. its on this site. check it out and i promise you wont be disappointed!!!

as a side note… i wouldnt start with winstrol. as a first time user, i would suggest something like equipoise. some may disagree, but from a personal standpoint and from suggesting it to others and being thanked, i would continue to suggest equipoise. plus, i like to stay away from orals anyway. but thats my choice, you can go about things in your own manner.

one more thing… be careful with the clen. monitor your body temperature regularly (every day/every other day). clen will raise body tempurature and in some cases has been shown to durastically increase body temp… if you get to 100 plus do NOT continue taking it. plus, you say you want to preserve muscle… clen not only burns fat it also burns off amounts of muscle too. how much is a person to person basis. id do some more research if i were you before starting anything. overall good luck and be careful

That’s a pretty low dose of clen, but if you don’t have it already, get albuterol instead. I personally think clen is the worst bodybuilding drug out there. Read this and decide if you still want to take it:

"These data show significant myocyte-specific necrosis in the heart and skeletal muscle of the rat. Such irreversible damage in the heart suggests that clenbuterol may be damaging to long-term health.

Although the dose stated in this abstract is very high, the lower doses used in the study when corrected for rat-human metabolism (Kleiber’s Law) still show damage to skeletal muscle and potentially cardiac muscle in doses commonly used by human physique competitors (100 + ug/d)"

  • Muscle Nerve. 2005 December; 32(6): 767�??774

A couple weeks of using it isn’t going to screw you for life, but I don’t see why adding another chemical to the list of harmful chemicals we ingest everyday is worthwhile. As well, the fat loss from clen it totally overhyped, and you will not feel that great in the gym while on it.

Some other things:

-Might want to look into some kind of pre-PCT such as a taper, or a couple weeks of proviron only at the end.

-Make sure you have an AI ready in case things get bad with the estrogen when you aren’t on the winny. The proviron is nice though. Aromasin with the Nolva during PCT would be nice too.

Thanks for the comments guys.
Have scared me about the Clen.
I already have it…
According to my research, the adverse affects of clen only occur in large doses or over prolonged use.

Need to read up more now!

Reading up on the anabolic diet also.

I am in favor of the anabolic diet. i got my mom and sister to try it and they agree its easy to do and they wont eat any other way anymore. they have lost 37 (my mother) and 17 (sister) lbs. in only 19 weeks. as for me, i gained 10 lbs from the diet alone. my strength has increased, my endurance has shot through the roof, i feel better while im awake, and i get better sleep… and sleep is huge for me since i work nights!! its definitely worth it. good luck bro!

[quote]conceit13 wrote:
I am in favor of the anabolic diet. i got my mom and sister to try it and they agree its easy to do and they wont eat any other way anymore. they have lost 37 (my mother) and 17 (sister) lbs. in only 19 weeks. as for me, i gained 10 lbs from the diet alone. my strength has increased, my endurance has shot through the roof, i feel better while im awake, and i get better sleep… and sleep is huge for me since i work nights!! its definitely worth it. good luck bro![/quote]

Yeah everyone seems to see the diet in a positive light.
Will be hard to keep <30g carbs during the week, but once I get over that hurdle, should be good. (Plus theres always re-feed days)

Thanks again guys, I feel that I am ready to begin the cycle.

i thought it would be hard to stay under 30g too, but its really not that bad… besides as ive realized, 30g is more of a guideline. i know its said as a statement, but there have been times i have got up to 50 or 60 grams a day and i have not seen any problems with it…

out of paranoia however, when i go above 30 grams, i usually add even more protein. i dont know if it makes a difference, but thats what i do… but its definitely a good diet overall. be careful with that cycle bro. and good luck on the gains!