T Nation

1st Cycle, Help w/ Fine Tuning, Risk Management


#1

Hi all, I've read the available stickies on first cycles, done a little extra reading, spoken to some people who have run multiple cycles. I've start started (literally 1 hour ago), my first course and would really appreciate any advice or cautions that the experienced board members have to offer, as I have a few worries.

Bit of background:
I'm 28 and have been lifting since the age of 15, but it has been on and off. I did a natural bodybuilding competition at 17 and won the junior title. I mainly pissed around for the next few years at university, training only sporadically. About age 22 I got into it again for about a year, then left it again, then picked it up again a few times, most recently last year.

I've played around with different programs, varying from 5x5, bodybuilding splits, Wendler's 531 and periods of nothing but calisthenics. I recently ended a 6 month program of calisthenics, just enjoying the rest on my joints, learning new skills etc and just having some fun.

I've attached a body shot to give some idea where I'm at currently (currently only 2 weeks back into lifting weights)

Last year after 3 months of 531 (and also vegan eating - just a phase...), I had a:

1RM squat of 220kg (484lbs)
1RM deadlift of about 200kg (440lbs)
1RM military press of 80kg (176lbs)
1RM bench of about 150kg (330lbs).

These are the heaviest figures I've achieved, which I mainly credit to muscle memory, fairly long training history and the genius of Jim Wendler's programming. I switched over to calisthenics, thinking I wanted to becoming smaller and faster and did that for 6 months, as mentioned above. Currently my 1RMs are probably about 70% of those figures, after 6 months of much lighter weights.

During that time, I was also trying to lose fat. I'm currently 96kg (211lbs), 179cm (5'10") and I'd estimate about 15-16% body fat. Body impedance tests fairly consistently give those numbers. Initially, I was eating to appeite, probably about 3500kcal, fairly equal macros. Over the past two months, I've tried carb cycling, calorie deficits (as low as 2000kcal/day, AMR estimated 2800-3500kcal/day).

Kept a food diary, tracked macro's most days, eating predominantly modified 'paleo' (mostly meats, eggs, starchy tubers, rice and oats). I've eaten this way for about 5 years, supplementing with omega 3, magnesium, vitamin D/A/K and some probiotics during this time.

To be fair, I would snack on sugary fruit bars and stuff, but I don't think my indulgences often exceeded 10-15% of total caloric intake.

Basically, I've hardly shifted a pound. I'm open to the possibility this wasn't clean enough, but when I dieted for my bodybuilding show, similar macros and some cheating got me down to about 9% in 6 months (from around 18%, I think).

I'm older now, and also taking lamotrigene 200mg and fluoxetine 40mg (for a variant of bipolar disorder, called cyclothymia). I'm also a qualified cognitive behavioural therapist and do a lot to help myself and others (exercise, clean eating, sleep, meditation and thought challenging, behavioural monitoring and modifications etc). At the moment, I'm pretty stable. Some fluctuating emotions but hey, that's life.

As I get older, my moods seem to be stabling out. I presume its a general overall personality change, loosening up and letting go through meditation and less idealism! I am not ignorant enough to know that I am immune to relapse and, obviously, I am still currently medicated. I'm wondering if lamotrigene might be inhibiting fat loss, as I think it can mess with prolactin? I've had standard NHS blood panels, but they didn't show me the results. I suspect they looked primarily at liver functioning.

The short of it is that a friend recommended I hand in my natty card. He had great results with a test enthanate, trenbolone enthanate and oral winstrol cycle, in combination with GBC training and low intensity cardio. I know tren is big boys business, but on these forums and others, a number of first time users seem to get great results. The program recommended to me is as follows:

300mg test e for 14 weeks (150mg E3D)
250mg tren e for 12 weeks (125mg E3D)
50mg winstrol ed from 12-16 weeks

2 weeks withdrawal, then PCT (clomid or Nolva). He didn't recommend during cycle AI drugs, of HCG (which, to my embarrassment, I only found out about last night - it would be too late for me to put in an order as long as they are not too pricey).

Training:
3x GBC training per week
3x basic strength training (5x5 major compound lifts) (to activate my muscle memory - my prediction is that my numbers will be much higher by the time the enthanate really starts to kick into gear, 6weeks?)
3-5x low intensity cardio (65-75% max bpm), probably morning fasted.

Nutrition
Approx 3-4k of a high protein, high fat, cyclical low-carb (post workout, maybe 200g if I can get it in...haha) training regime. Lots of saturated fats, red meats, eggs etc, with only 10-20% of protein coming from plant-based protein shakes (I'm reasonably dairy/gluten intolerant after 5 years without them). Some fruit.

These are my concerns:

1) Potential emotional consequences from the trenbolone. I can handle some rougher weather, but not constant storms. I have quite extensive coping strategies, experience working with mental health problems, and I'm surrounded my loving family members and psychologist colleagues! I've never been suicidal and have a strong impulse towards life/growth. I know that tren can seriously fuck with some people, and I'd like some idea as to whether my ratio/dosages of test/tren looks rational, given what we know about the two and how they interact.

2) I'm not sure of the 'strength' of the combined steroids. My preference was to try a moderate test enth cycle, with no other supports to test the waters, but as my goals are primarily fat loss and muscle maintenance, my friend recommended the cycle above. I'm aware that too little is basically pointless, and too aggressive can cause more side effects. I'd like to find a happy medium and, whilst bodies are idiosyncratic, I'm hoping the experience of members here will have some estimations as to the strength of the above.

As I understand it, the test enth is primarily just to stop my test levels dropping too low from the trenbolone. I've read that low test/high tren can be powerful fat loss, but a bit rough. I've also read that high test/low tren can, paradoxically, cause more side effects.

I'm quite confused on all this stuff and whilst I have an above average understanding of biology, hormones and the complexity of those systems, I'm no pharmacologist and I don't know a huge deal about safe/effective steroid use. Insomnia from tren would be an absolute no go for me (I'm generally mentally very well if my sleep is ok).

As it's my first cycle, it would be good to maximize gains. It's worth noting that I'm not, at this time, planning another cycle. If I can achieve my goals and maintain 80% of that post-cycle, I'll be more than happy with the result. I have, however, heard it is a bit moreish once you get going...

3) I'm unsure as to whether I need HCG or an AI at this point.

4) I'm unsure as to whether it is better to withdraw then PCT, or taper, given my psychiatric history and potential vulnerabilities.

5) I'm concerned about the potential liver impact of lamotrigene (mild, but can raise enzymes) and winstrol (potential for acute liver elevations). I don't drink alcohol at all any more and only occasionally take recreational drugs. I'm in otherwise great physical health, good skin, good teeth, full hair follicles etc.

6) I've read a lot of guys will eat 4-5k kcal/day whilst on cycle. Is this low enough for me to also cut, given my training regime?

Overall, this has been a risk vs cost equation for me. I'd very much like to achieve that dense, strong and ripped physique that I am struggling to achieve at this time in my life, despite my stated efforts. I've heard great things about the assertiveness/confidence that can come from testosterone supplementation and my intuition is that I will be able to handle it. Of course, no one here has a crystal ball, but any risk mitigation advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm prepared to take a bit of a blow to temporary emotional volatility if it means I can get that alpha body and strength, because I just fucking love training :slight_smile:

I'm ready for the flames if necessary, as I understand tren is not something to be taken lightly. Should the members of this board urge me to go pure test E, even dropping winstrol, this is something I am prepared to consider. I have to admit, I'm excited about the possibility of a winstrol kickstart. To be honest, I'm massively stoked about the entire endeavour and those I train with think I going to respond very strongly given my history and training/nutrition commitments. Fingers crossed ay.

Thanks in advance for your time and support.

Rick


#2

I dont think you are ready or need gear at this point. Im not too sure on your goals but it seems getting back into a spot on diet and training program would be more beneficial to you.

If you do decide to use, I would just stick with something very simple like test e. If you got leaner naturally then started then maybe add in something like anavar.

Onto the tren side of things; I love it, but thats because my training goals are to be a freak. If your goals arent to be the freakiest mother fucker in the gym, ide leave it alone. From personal experience, test feels great, tren can get you into trouble, very quickly! I love the stuff, love my life and have no stresses to worry about at all. BUT even I feel abit down for no reason every now and then. As for the aggression, it can quickly turn a funny look into a serious altercation.

Keeping it simple:
HCG - helps keep your balls producing “natural” test
An AI on cycle - helps control estrogen (gyno and water retention)
PCT - Should include serms (in some cases hcg also) PCT helps your balls recover

All these things should be in place and planned for for the best possible outcome from using aas. If any are missed, sure you may be “ok”, but this in my opinion is the difference between use and abuse. At some point in life you will need to stop and be natty for a while. You want everything to be working correctly.


#3

It blows me away people want to jump on Tren on their first cycle. That is not a beginner drug. It also blows me away when people don’t know the difference between HcG, a SERM and an AI, and then start a cycle and will figure it out from there. What isn’t talked about much is having a plan when something goes wrong too. But I digress.

Read the stickies in this forum and educate yourself on AI’s, HcG and PCT. Do it now because you should already be using an AI. Keep the first cycle as simple as possible and learn. My 2 cents.


#4

[quote]AndyJones1992 wrote:
I dont think you are ready or need gear at this point. Im not too sure on your goals but it seems getting back into a spot on diet and training program would be more beneficial to you.

If you do decide to use, I would just stick with something very simple like test e. If you got leaner naturally then started then maybe add in something like anavar.

Onto the tren side of things; I love it, but thats because my training goals are to be a freak. If your goals arent to be the freakiest mother fucker in the gym, ide leave it alone. From personal experience, test feels great, tren can get you into trouble, very quickly! I love the stuff, love my life and have no stresses to worry about at all. BUT even I feel abit down for no reason every now and then. As for the aggression, it can quickly turn a funny look into a serious altercation.

Keeping it simple:
HCG - helps keep your balls producing “natural” test
An AI on cycle - helps control estrogen (gyno and water retention)
PCT - Should include serms (in some cases hcg also) PCT helps your balls recover

All these things should be in place and planned for for the best possible outcome from using aas. If any are missed, sure you may be “ok”, but this in my opinion is the difference between use and abuse. At some point in life you will need to stop and be natty for a while. You want everything to be working correctly.[/quote]

You are so much more patient than me, thanks lol!


#5

[quote]KountKoma wrote:
It blows me away people want to jump on Tren on their first cycle. That is not a beginner drug. It also blows me away when people don’t know the difference between HcG, a SERM and an AI, and then start a cycle and will figure it out from there. What isn’t talked about much is having a plan when something goes wrong too. But I digress.

Read the stickies in this forum and educate yourself on AI’s, HcG and PCT. Do it now because you should already be using an AI. Keep the first cycle as simple as possible and learn. My 2 cents.[/quote]

Ditto lol


#6

From what I’ve read, I think I do understand the difference between an AI, SERM or HCG, but on various sites around the Web, there are many different recommendations. Some say that first cycle, post cycle clomid is enough etc. My intension at this point is to get some clomid or nolva, adjusted to protocol pending potential changes from posting here, draw that up into a spread sheet and make sure I’ve got all my ducks in a row. Not everyone seems to say take an AI from the get go so it didn’t seem to be a deal breaker.

I feel like I should have trusted my intuitions regarding tren, but people really hype about it.

I expect I will drop to just test enth at this point as my desire is to play it safe. I want to drop body fat but being a freaky motherfucker I’m definitely game for, but in that order of priority.

If I do switch down, I’ll go for 300mg test enth per week. Any tips for the winstrol? I’ve bought it now…

I appreciate the help and somewhat restrained frustration you guys must be feeling after another noob post. Honestly I tried to think this through.


#7

if you have any mental health issues, then tren and clomid are not for you. also, estrogen needs to be managed carefully as well, due to the emotional issues that it imparts…

prior to any cycle, you need to get bloodwork, and get your testosterone levels, but more importantly for YOU, your prolactin and estrogen levels.

^quite honestly, i suspect that those might be out of whack due to your current medications…


#8

OK, I appreciate the advice. Given that, as mentioned in original post, I jabbed this morning, what’s my best course of action now? I don’t know how quickly endogenous test shuts down after one shot of each and the winnie


#9

Hi Rick,

If you plan on continuing with the cycle i would make the following changes.

Test E @ 250mg twice a week for 10-12 weeks
Adex EOD up to PCT 0.25mg or 0.5mg
HCG @ 250iu twice a week whilst running the test (or up to 3 days before starting PCT)
Winstrol @ 50mg a day week 1-4

PCT nolvadex for 6 weeks @ 20mg a day (you can run clomid also but nolva is prio)

I would definitely drop the tren and get your hands on the arimadex, HCG and nolvadex asap. It is very important to get these, they will protect you and make recovery a lot easier. If you have any gyno issues, which is unlikely if you run the adex properly, you can use the nolvadex to treat it on cycle. I personally run arimadex @ 0.5mg EOD on 500mg a week of test but it is often recommended to start at 0.25mg.

As you have the Winstrol i don’t see any harm in using it for a few weeks at the start. I have recommend increasing the test to 500mg a week as this is always suggested as a great starting point, and the effects on your body in terms of shutdown and recovery are pretty much the same when running 300mg. Add in something like TUDCA and Milk Thistle for liver help. Also do not run the cycle for 14 weeks - preferably 10 or 12 max.

You also really need a solid diet plan in place to make the most of the cycle - 5K calories sounds excessive to me. Diet is quite a personal thing and is really down to you knowing what works for you.


#10

-you are too fucking fat
-you clearly don’t know shit about diet or training (15 years…REALLY?)
-you are already on drugs for mental issues
-you haven’t done shit for research (guess what? steroids can have very, very serious consequences)
-you also take recreational drugs???

in all my years of reading proposed cycles, you are probably the LEAST ready of anyone I have ever come across… ive seen 17 year olds who have their shit more together than you do.

and of course…you’ve already started injecting…

…incredible

you should have just stuck to playing slapdick with your friends, because if what you have written is true, you don’t care enough about training/diet/lifestyle to be consistent with any of it.

for fuck’s sake.


#11

No, no, no… research more about everything… read what you wrote and ask your self if you really need and ready to do this shit… tren can mess with your head really quick. Based on what you said (recreational drugs, mental treatment, etc) you should consider to be not even close to steroids…

all respect!


#12

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
-you are too fucking fat
-you clearly don’t know shit about diet or training (15 years…REALLY?)
-you are already on drugs for mental issues
-you haven’t done shit for research (guess what? steroids can have very, very serious consequences)
-you also take recreational drugs???

in all my years of reading proposed cycles, you are probably the LEAST ready of anyone I have ever come across… ive seen 17 year olds who have their shit more together than you do.

and of course…you’ve already started injecting…

…incredible

you should have just stuck to playing slapdick with your friends, because if what you have written is true, you don’t care enough about training/diet/lifestyle to be consistent with any of it.

for fuck’s sake. [/quote]

I can’t believe I had to read so many posts in this thread before someone was willing to be honest here.

The only positive I can see here is that your training numbers are MAYBE not garbage. But I have a feeling that your squat is sky high, since your deadlift is so much lower than your squat, and who knows what your bench actually looks like.

What’s funny is your attitude here. You’re trying to make it sound like you have a reasonable understanding of this stuff, but you clearly don’t. The fact that you even have to ask if an AI should be on hand is baffling. Rather than trying to fully understand the mechanisms by which an AI works, and coming to the conclusion on your own that it’s something you’ll need, you’ve told us ‘some people don’t use one and they’re just fine’. A) you don’t actually know that they’re just fine. B) You’re relying on an anonymous dude on an internet forum who’s basically saying ‘yolo bro’.

Then there’s the tren. Even if you WEREN’T on meds already, this would be a bad idea. Your meds just compound the issue. And since you’ve opted for Tren E instead of Ace, it’s going to take forever for the tren to clear, in the event that you realize it’s a bad idea (which you almost certainly will). Just as strange: you’re trying to decide between 300 test + 250 tren, or just 300 test. That’s like saying “I’m either going to eat 1 slice of pizza, or 5 slices of pizza. I can’t decide which way to go.” Because that’s how strong tren is.

Who knows why you’ve got winstrol in there.

And you’re obviously not THAT concerned with your health, if you’re occasionally taking recreational drugs. I don’t know what occasionally means to you, but since you found it to be worth mentioning, I’m guessing at least a couple times a month, maybe more.

And as Walkway said, of course you only created this thread AFTER your first pin. Of course. Because it wouldn’t have made more sense to wait 1 fucking day to get some feedback. You’ve been training 15 years, as you say, but you didn’t have the patience to put this off for even a few more hours.

Forget fine tuning. You need to a complete mental overhaul here. I can only hope you make your first pin your last.


#13

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
-you are too fucking fat
-you clearly don’t know shit about diet or training (15 years…REALLY?)
-you are already on drugs for mental issues
-you haven’t done shit for research (guess what? steroids can have very, very serious consequences)
-you also take recreational drugs???

in all my years of reading proposed cycles, you are probably the LEAST ready of anyone I have ever come across… ive seen 17 year olds who have their shit more together than you do.

and of course…you’ve already started injecting…

…incredible

you should have just stuck to playing slapdick with your friends, because if what you have written is true, you don’t care enough about training/diet/lifestyle to be consistent with any of it.

for fuck’s sake. [/quote]

I can’t believe I had to read so many posts in this thread before someone was willing to be honest here.

The only positive I can see here is that your training numbers are MAYBE not garbage. But I have a feeling that your squat is sky high, since your deadlift is so much lower than your squat, and who knows what your bench actually looks like.

What’s funny is your attitude here. You’re trying to make it sound like you have a reasonable understanding of this stuff, but you clearly don’t. The fact that you even have to ask if an AI should be on hand is baffling. Rather than trying to fully understand the mechanisms by which an AI works, and coming to the conclusion on your own that it’s something you’ll need, you’ve told us ‘some people don’t use one and they’re just fine’. A) you don’t actually know that they’re just fine. B) You’re relying on an anonymous dude on an internet forum who’s basically saying ‘yolo bro’.

Then there’s the tren. Even if you WEREN’T on meds already, this would be a bad idea. Your meds just compound the issue. And since you’ve opted for Tren E instead of Ace, it’s going to take forever for the tren to clear, in the event that you realize it’s a bad idea (which you almost certainly will). Just as strange: you’re trying to decide between 300 test + 250 tren, or just 300 test. That’s like saying “I’m either going to eat 1 slice of pizza, or 5 slices of pizza. I can’t decide which way to go.” Because that’s how strong tren is.

Who knows why you’ve got winstrol in there.

And you’re obviously not THAT concerned with your health, if you’re occasionally taking recreational drugs. I don’t know what occasionally means to you, but since you found it to be worth mentioning, I’m guessing at least a couple times a month, maybe more.

And as Walkway said, of course you only created this thread AFTER your first pin. Of course. Because it wouldn’t have made more sense to wait 1 fucking day to get some feedback. You’ve been training 15 years, as you say, but you didn’t have the patience to put this off for even a few more hours.

Forget fine tuning. You need to a complete mental overhaul here. I can only hope you make your first pin your last.[/quote]

Couldn’t agree anymore… OMG… you just put everyone thoughts in words.
Congrats


#14

I’m not trying to sound more knowledgeable than I am, I just put everything I knew about myself and this stuff down onto paper. Too little and some worry led to a lot of hate, I can see that pretty clearly.

I realise it was impulsive of me to start, but thanks for the wake up call. If I didn’t respect the advice of the people here, I just wouldn’t ask and that’s that.

I’ve read around some more, this time from a more peer reviewed and research perspective rather than forums, the gym folk etc.

I realise I wasn’t ready and could be in some hot water, but I don’t really appreciate the skepticism regarding my approach to training and nutrition. I’ve achieved better results than some long term steroid users and yet all that is being thrown out because I made some hasty judgements and bad decisions re AAS. Whatever…believe what you want.

I’ve been on for nearly 3 weeks. I pinned tren only twice, and tentatively continued with test enth by itself.

I’ve got adex, hcg and nolvadex on hand already, have looked at some half life charts for test enth and estimating that in approx 2 weeks from today my testosterone levels will be somewhere around average male endogenous production.

If anyone is happy to give advice on the best way to approach PCT after such a short exposure that would be appreciated.

All I’m really interested in at this point is damage minimisation.


#15

People may have gone at you a bit hard, but to be fair, you have started a cycle without having a plan, then asked for advice, and now you want to stop altogether but have been using the drugs for 3 weeks?

It is crazy for someone to start a cycle without specific goals that they are committed to achieving and i have not come across this kind of attitude before - even bros with a ‘YOLO’ attitude execute better than this.

Do you want stop completely or do you want to run a sensible test only cycle?

If you are happy that your diet and training are in a good place and want to continue you could run the cycle i put forward without the winstrol. If you want to come off after 3 weeks then i am not sure what you need to do regarding PCT, maybe a bit of nolvadex for a few weeks but hopefully someone else can advise here.


#16

[quote]zenfires wrote:
I realise I wasn’t ready and could be in some hot water, but I don’t really appreciate the skepticism regarding my approach to training and nutrition…

I’ve been on for nearly 3 weeks. I pinned tren only twice, and tentatively continued with test enth by itself.

I’ve got adex, hcg and nolvadex on hand already, have looked at some half life charts for test enth and estimating that in approx 2 weeks from today my testosterone levels will be somewhere around average male endogenous production.

If anyone is happy to give advice on the best way to approach PCT after such a short exposure that would be appreciated.

All I’m really interested in at this point is damage minimisation.[/quote]

Don’t take it personally that your nutrition has been questioned. You need to understand that EVERYONE comes in here saying that eat perfectly. We’ve all seen your pictures, we KNOW your diet is not dialed in. Get real man. Maybe it’s really good now or something, but it wasn’t when you took those pictures. I can’t really comment on your training, as I’ve never seen you train.

As far as PCT goes, I’m assuming this means you’re cutting your cycle short now? If that’s the case, then you are correct that you should wait 2 weeks after your last pin to start it. Since you only got 3 weeks deep into your cycle, PCT shouldn’t be a terrible experience. You’ll likely recover quickly. I would recommend just running nolva for 4 weeks at 20mg/day. This should be sufficient for recovery.


#17

I appreciate my diet/training hasn’t been as dialled as it could be. Certainly a lot less than my natural potential. I’ve competed in the past so I know where I stand in relation to that…boy…guess I got inpatient as mentioned.

I feel I have to stop the cycle completely as I’ve already started to experience some emotional destabilisation. Whilst it hasn’t been severe, it has been significant, and I certainly wouldn’t want it to get any worse. From the few papers I can find documenting the complex relationship between psychiatric functioning and AAS use, much of it is dose dependant. Considering I have used an enanthate ester, it doesn’t seem beyond reasonable thinking to assume that, if it’s getting unpleasantly warm now, things really could heat up in the next few weeks. I’m not in a place right now where I could shoulder that increased volatility, as many of the vets here have already mentioned.

For me, overall wellbeing overrides any physical goals, however well I’ve defined them. I’ll still shoot for those, but with my as given endocrine system. It’s like people here said; it’s just too many fucking variables for me to be messing around with at this point in time.

I got seduced by dreams of greatness. It’s as simple as that really. Stupid.

It’s a short course, and from what I’ve read about the relevant hormonal axes, my recovery should be fairly rapid, as there just hasn’t been enough time to cause major biological down regulation in the testes, pituitary etc.

But I want to play it safe, and if a few weeks of nolvadex is the way to do that then I’m certainly game. People in the gym saying I should be going full guns blazing on hcg, but it’s expensive and, whilst on hand, if I don’t have to use it all the better really…from what I’ve read, some encouragement of LH and FSH should be enough. It sounds like nolva by itself will be enough to do that which is encouraging.

To be honest, it’s quickly becoming apparent that there are relatively few places you can get reliable information about the complexities of AAS usage. The guys in my gym, as confident as they might be, as many cycles as they might have run, seem to actually know very little in comparison to most if not all of the threads here. I actually find it pretty alarming how nonchalantly hormones are discussed in otherwise respectable people around me. Meh.

Cheers for tolerating my bullshit and continuing to help.


#18

I agree with most of what you said in this last post. HCG is useful, but it’s absolutely not necessary.

This is why people should ALWAYS start with just test, or maybe test and an oral. You’re in a place now where you don’t know if the Tren was the problem, or AAS in general.

Emotional stability is very difficult for many people who use AAS. It’s not a thing to be taken lightly. I have to say though, I’m impressed that you’ve been receptive in this thread. If you learn a lesson from your experience, you’ll be better for it.

Best of luck, hope you stick around.


#19

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I’ll post a couple of updates here as to how things go. Hopefully the whole thread can serve as a bit of a warning to the overly keen and underprepared, particularly when there are additional psychological concerns.

I can see why many promote an aggressive first cycle, but for chaps like myself, it would be a really, really bad idea in pretty much all cases. You’re right that we don’t know if it is tren or general AAS now, and I’ve lost time, money and enthusiasm for an avenue that could have (and may one day be) been very rewarding…!

Cheers all


#20

Out of curiosity, has anyone got any experience of the psychological differences of slowly dropping testosterone levels, as opposed to rapidly dropping ones?

I’ve been playing with half life calculators online and, given I have 3ml of 250mg/ml enanthate left, it’s relatively easy to set up a taper that can take me from total bodily testosterone levels of 63mg to 12mg (not sure how this translates into bloody concentrations, and not sure how important to work out this is either, assuming they both drop at a similar rate).

Its possible to do a straight drop (as planned, and still executing), or spread the withdrawal period over 3-4 weeks. Whilst blood levels would fall to TRT levels quite quickly in either case, I’m assuming supranormal levels of testosterone to any degree still promote anabolism and prevention of catabolism whilst I am dieting, and may prove useful.

Any experience or theory much appreciated.