T Nation

19 Year Old Australia, Symptoms of Low T

I am hoping restart but he thinks it’s primary. My FSH is at 5, but ill see what LH and FSH is in a weeks time. If they are mid and test is low then it’s probably primary. I still want to try clomid, but uni is getting hectic and I have dropped 2 courses. Even a week is indispensable atm. I don’t know how long clomid takes to start, but I might confused doing bi weekly shots until November and then in November go on clomid for 3-6 months and see if if an slowly taper off and keep my levels at 600 . If I can’t then ill prob do TRT protocol. He seems very hesitant against hCG. But I am pretty sure with enough persuasion that I convince him. If clomid does not work at all, even if I get upto 50 mg/EOD then ill be idiopathic primary and will need to be on TRT. Atm I just don’t want to fuck around with protocol. Like I said, might just get on injections for 3. Months and when uni finishes ill star clomid without TRT.

What do you think?

Blood work won’t be a problem, convincing him will. He only wants to do either axiron or sus the stupid idiot. I prob can convince him to let me do test e 200mg every weeks, but ill do bi weekly at home without him knowing.

I am so desperate atm …

What I don’t think is that testosterone will make feel better… I know you want to believe there is a quick fix cause quick is easy but I really think you have some dis-ease or fungus or both… I am going to send you something to have a look at. I don’t want you to read it and do it I want you to educate yourself on the subject and do what you think is right…

Leave your email for me and I will send it…

I will leave a message saying “sent” when I have your email…

Don’t be confused, that was post wasn’t saying that T is my problem. I know it’s not the main issue at hand. I may very well have adrenal fatigue, thyroid issues, or fungal/lyme issues. I need to cancel each option out so I can find what the issue is.

Did you recieve it?

Yes I did, it went into my jink folder?!

Shouk: I had all your mental and physical symptoms and have just cured myself after physician refused to treat.

Am using a tiny 7mg dose of dbol (Dianabol, Methandrostenolone) at about 8:30am on awakening.

It’s reversed all - every last single one - of the symptoms both mental and physical with minimial sides which I just completely eliminated today by switching from eating the powder orally to insufflating it nasally. This new route of administraton is revolutionary and today I have so much energy - unlike every other day for the last fifteen years - including the last three weeks of oral dbol dosing - that I can’t even get to sleep after midnight.

The nasal route is producing 50% stronger effects than oral - which was already quite powerful itself - lasting 2x-3x longer - so potent that only 2-3 mg will be needed once in the morning upon awakening.

My ten grams of 99% pure dbol was a 3.9 year supply based on 7mg/day oral but it just today morphed into an 8-year supply when taken intranasally. Hell, even the oral route was ridiculously cheap but now it’s almost free. I paid $107.67 for this ten-gram eight-year supply including Express Mail fee directly from a Chinese chemical company and it arrived in perfect condition and was trackable online all the way.

It’s ridiculously economic - costing only a few cents per day.

I’m the first to report this route of administration online.

See here for the details:

Wow, let me look into it. Thanks for the info! :slight_smile:

I am also into nootropics, and have modafinil, aniracetam and piracetam at home. I am interested in it’s noortropic effects, and maybe be willing to use it for cognitive enhancement. I do not know of it’s long term safety. I haven’t done enough research. I don’t know if this is a replacement for TRT. How does it do for your libido?

Taking the 7mg dbol each morning orally altered my libido - turned it off by about 80% - but ball size is still the same after three weeks and even though I have no desire, erections and orgasms are easy and the orgasms are far more intense than ever in memory - at least for the last five years. That’s because the dbol cut my psychological desire by 80% but balls physically by at most 10%, so the ratio is now skewed toward buildup due to voluntary abstention.

Unlike replacement Testosterone, dbol is far less suppressive of natural production and also produces more physical energy per unit of androgenicity - 2:1 more than Testosterone whose ratio of Anabolic:Androgenic is 1:1. Personally, I don’t want a girl and don’t care about sex activities but need the physical energy and reversal of wasting, depression, etc. for all my projects. Also, taking enough Testosterone by any route to produce this much anabolic effect - reversing my years of muscle wasting and physical fatigue - would not only completely shut down my own production but would also cause major hair loss due to the higher dose required to produce equal anabolic effects - even if dbol and Testosterone have the same conversion rate to DHT.

After all, that’s why dbol was invented - to treat these problems at a single low dose each day. With nasal administration that low dose gets cut in half or less again.

There are lots of alternatives to dbol of course, and now that the nasal route has been shown to work so excellently for both brain and whole-body effects there’s no reason not to optimize the low morning androgen dose

PS. Restoring to normal androgen activation levels in my brain these last three weeks has doubled the power of the nootropics I’m taking, specifically their power to prevent daytime mental fatigue and also the visual clarity. The nootropic effects had been lagging worse and worse since starting in Summer 2008 - and I had to switch to stronger ones to maintain effects - from Piracetam to Aniracetam to Oxiracetam and now to Pramiracetam + Oxiracetam + Sunifiram.

The stack now works ridiculously powerful and half of it is no longer necessary now that my in-brain androgen level has been raised to normalcy. Yeah, I had a Phenylpiracetam purchase set up since a couple days ago and deleted it last night as the last thing I did before bed!

All my plans changed ove the course of a single day yesterday due to the massive improvement in end-of-day effects after switching to the oral route. Dbol had been great these last three weeks but I was not liking the mental and physical fatigue it produced at the end of the day - presumably due the accumulation of excess aromatization products. It was perfect for restoring physical energy, rebuilding wasted muscle and ensuring physical and mental energy with no fatigue - up until about 6:00p each day. After that time came the Estrogenic slump. Intranasal yesterday entirely prevented that for the first time.

And boy oh boy, dbol is a Hell of a lot cheaper than the futile effort of stacking more and more expensive racetams - I don’t do caffeine or other stimulants but likely others would use caffeine in the effort - like Phenylpiracetam in an ultimately futile attempt to bust the brain fog and fatigue. The financial costs of such a program are enormous and increase monthly as flagging natural production drops like a rock in the Bay of Biscay.

In stark contrast, the cost to treat the myriad symptoms of low Testosterone correctly is pennies a day and the effects have gotten better each day these last three weeks.

I woke up this morning a bit earlier than usual and bounced out of bed at 7:12am. The dizziness - obviously due to dbol overdose - is entirely gone and my sleep was of excellent quality as usual but much more energy and mental clarity on awakening than any day in the last three weeks. Like being awake before even waking up. This has never happened before - not even one day since the last three weeks of starting oral dbol at 7mg.

I had to wait until 1:30am last night before going to bed because I could feel that I would just be lying in bed waiting hours for sleep - this is after the single small intranasal 7mg dbol dose at 9:41am yesterday. All the rest of my daily routine including food, etc. was a carbon-copy of every day for the last three weeks (yeah, I’m a recluse and habitual routine kinda guy).

It’s 7:28am now and I plan to take a smaller dose this morning.

Believe it or not, there are still traces of residual mental and physical stimulation even now - mental especially - almost 24 hours after the usual 7mg via the new nasal route yesterday.

The fact that is relieved you of the very same symptoms I have is very appealing to me. I just had an endo appointment just then. My cortisol and ACTH was pretty damn good and so was my thyroid. My temps are good. My TT came in at 350, but FT came in at 333 (110-550). So my test is middle range.

I still have unrelenting fatigue and brain fog. My psychiatrist says that it’s just my anxiety. But I don’t feel I have anxiety because I’m not afraid of talking to people etc. in fact I enjoy it. I am no depressed either because I have high self worth and gratification.

I am so confused atm and I am falling apart. I can’t take it anymore. Relationships are soaring because people don’t care enough to help me, which I understand. My LH and FSH were on the high end of normal. SHBG is pretty low. E2 was t tested.

I am just thinking to take test e 100mg x2 week to see how that goes. We will see if that will relieve all my symptoms. I don’t want to do this.

Maybe it’s Lyme disease or some other disease. Just why …


Let’s not jump straight into an unproven and undocumented (other than isochroma) treatment plan… We have no other data on him other than he was taking Dbol orally and is now snorting it. Isochroma, I’m not try to discourage you. Simply stating facts. By all means, we are intrigued and would like you to continue, but I think we are VERY FAR from recommending it to other people after a three-day trial period.

Patience is a virtue. Everyone here is either going through or has gone through what you are right now. I know personally how much it sucks to be young and feel like shit. I KNOW my prolactinoma started messing with me when I was 20-21. I was given anti-depressants…

Can you please post your recent labs here?

Yes sorry kaynon311, I was getting carried away. My emotional side of me takes over when my rational mind is so largely impaired.

Here are my current lab results.

ACTH 23 pg/ml ( < 46)
TT 13 nmol/L (8 - 30) (around 375ng/dl)

(note this was drawn at 10:30am, I woke up at 5am that morning, so it would probably be around 15ng/dl in the morning. I am also taking tribulus terrestis, equiv. of 330mg of protodioscin daily. This has helped a bit. I am also taking zinc, vit D etc.)

SHBG 20 nmol/L (17-66)

FT 339 pmol/L (170-500)

Cortisol at 10:30 AM 450nmol/L (110 - 550)

GH 0.1 ug/L (<5.0)

FSH 5IU/L (1-8)
LH 6IU/L (2-8)
Prolactin 5.1 ug/L (<20.0)

Iron 10 umol/L (13-30)
Transferritin 2.52 g/L (2.1 - 3.8)
Ferritin 87 ug/L (30-400)

TG antibodies <15 U/mL (<60)
TPO antibodies 39 U/ml (<60)
TSH 2.09 mIU/L (0.5-5)
fT4 15.2 pmol/L (9.0-25.0)
fT3 5.3 pmol/L (3.5-6.5)

My left testicle is 15cc and my right is 12.5 cc. My endo used an orchidometer for this. He said the normal range is around 15-25, with normal 19 year old males having size on average around 22.5-25cc. This indicates that I have primary, but not as bad as klenfelter’s. My LH and FSH are on the higher side of normal, yet testicles are still small. This is probably due to damage caused by un-descending testicles when I was a baby. Low SHBG seems to be my bodies attempt to get free T as high as possible.

My endo refused to treat me on the grounds that I wasn’t deficient in testosterone, but he did admit it was low for my age. My free T is not too bad, but although it has almost doubled since the blood test in February, I don’t really feel any better.

I would to say something. From December-June I was taking 200mg of modafinil per day to help me with my symptoms. I am supposing that chronic use of modafinil actually caused a big dip in testosterone levels when I measure them in February and March. The reason I say this is because I starting lifting again in December when I started modafinil. Before then I simply did not have the energy to lift. I had no social life and all my efforts where into study. I still had brain fog, but because I was only focused on uni I was doing ok. Of course, this was not state to live in as a 19 year old.

I believe that my test levels now are probably what they were a year ago because I essentially feel the same.

I am really contemlating self administrating TRT to see how I feel on it. I am primary and any belated attempt to increase test via natural means will be in man because of testicular dysfunction. My LH and FSH are on the upper range of normal.

What do you guys think? I will see if I can get KSMAN to see this too.

I am also worried because I would defiantly want to have kids when I get older. I don’t want to permanently damage my testicles (even though they are pretty bad as they are), to the extent I can’t produce sperm, I don’t know what my sperm count is now, but I am sure that if I take hCG then I should be ok? When the time comes (10 years maybe), I just smash the shit out of my balls with clomid and hCG/hMG to get my sperm production again.

My plan is, if you guys agree it’s the way to go, is to go on TRT, maybe do 200mg per week of Test enanthate (100mg biweekly), 1mg AI with like 250-500 IU hCG. I can get all this.

Eventually, if I do feel better, I may be able to get to an anti aging clinic and tell them my situation, and see if I can get a prescription so that I will the authority to travel with testosterone (I can’t travel without a prescription).

You guys probably know enough of my history to help me with this. Thanks.

“just smash the shit out of my balls with clomid and hCG/hMG” -that can damage the LH receptors! Do not take high doses of these things and that also means that you cannot stack them. Disregard the bro-science that you read else where and also be aware that some docs are really stupid about this.

What is body temperature when you wake up? With your T meds, temperatures should normalize, T4 should drop and TSH should drop. T3 is fast acting, how many doses per day?

Do not jump on 200mg/week! Too soon for that crap. Get thyroid fixed first and fly with that for a while.

What is your DHEA-S?
Are you increasing your cholesterol?
Do we have an AM cortisol result?

LH and FT are pulsatile and any single lab result has limited value. TT and FSH are better indicators of what is going on.

GH=0.1, that is really bad. But GH levels change a lot. You should be testing IGF-1 as a GH status indicator, it has a much longer half life.

Ping me again.

[quote]Shouk wrote:
I was getting carried away. My emotional side of me takes over when my rational mind is so largely impaired.

This is a totally natural response. That’s why we are a family. To warn each other of potential mistakes.

[quote]Shouk wrote:
I am also worried because I would defiantly want to have kids when I get older. I don’t want to permanently damage my testicles (even though they are pretty bad as they are), to the extent I can’t produce sperm, I don’t know what my sperm count is now, but I am sure that if I take hCG then I should be ok?

Those on TRT don’t totally lose fertility. Some more than others. If you had to choose quality of life or a family, which would you choose?

The low GH would be indicative of hypopituitarism to some degree, but may be more indicative of a hypothalamus disorder.

Can you get GHRH and TRH tested?

Hypothalamus sends TRH to the pituitary -> pituitary secretes TSH. Hypothalamus sends GHRH to the pituitary -> pituitary secretes GH

Ok so your right. I don’t want leydig receptors to de sensitise. My endo is a fucking idiot and didn’t IGF-1. It even said on the blood work to the pathology to get IGF-1 done but i see it hasn’t been done. I am getting around 100gm fats daily. Half from olive oil.

I can get IGF-1 tested with my naturopath. I don’t know about TRH and GHRH but I will try. I should be receiving 4x cortisol and DHEA-s results soon. At 10:30 am, my cortisol was 450 (110-550). On this day I woke up at 5am so it would have been even higher in the morning. To let you guys know, I am finding I am getting less and less sleep. It almost feels as if my body is saying its fully repaired after 6-7 hours sleep. But with this necessant brain fog, I don’t know if due to poor sleep, estrogen dominance, low test or something else.

I have started taking low dose AI as it is clear that I am estrogen dominant from personality and body characteristics (lean arms and legs, all fat stored on hops and abdomen) (moody bitch, emotional, feel beta as fuck (opposite of alpha)). 2 days ago I took 0.125mg AI. I must say I felt better yesterday. Brain fog was helped a little and I was happier. Didn’t have as much water retention (I am usually really puff by the end of the day) and my wellbeing was a little better.

KSman, my FSH has come back 5 twice. I got it tested back in march and I got the Sam results. Back in march LH was 2.

Morning temps are around 97.5 and afternoon temps are around 98.5-99.0. My temps normalised after taking axiron 2 months ago. I stil haven’t got the natural dessicated thyroid yet, it’s still in the mail. I don’t even know if I will use it. My TSH does has room to go down and fT4 and fT3 have room to go up. My naturopath wants me to use adaptogens to help improve my sleep quality and improve thyroid function. I must see that some of the herbs that she is using (from a very good company) have some merit to her claims from viewing anecdotal reports as well as studies. So maybe I should try them for a few Months to see what happens.

Is also wouls like to note. Before the begining of this year I tried very hard for a whole year to lose weight and get down to 8% because I wanted to have a good bod for once. I never could get below 15% even though I went down to eating 1500 calories for a few months. I still really can’t lose weight atm. I know that if T is completed normalized this won’t be an issue and I should be able to get down to 8% for once. Summer here is in 3 months and I guess having a good bod would be sweet, but I understand that these things shouldn’t be rushed.

Thanks guys.

Also, the AI has helped me abit. It has decreased my rapid thought patterns and also my brain fog. I would say that if 10 is my worse, I went from 8/10 down to 6/10 with the AI. I still have to wait a week until i get the full effects. Dosing at 0.2mg EOD.

I can’t get IGF-1, TRH or GHRH atm. Endocrinologist is away on leave for a month. I may be seeing a Holistic Doctor soon, who is very, very open minded. I do not know how versed he is in TRT.

I am pretty sure now that testosterone is not my problem. I put the rest of the Axiron that I had left in the bottle (5 pumps, 2.5x recommended daily dose). Within the hour I started to have pretty crazy libido and frequent erections. My brain fog, cognitve dysfunction and fatigue did not improve. The Holistic is apparently awesome because he is now a GP, but he went thtough Chronic Fatigue Syndrome himself. So I should be seeing him within the next 2 months.

In a week’s time I will get my cortisol results back, and I will probably be put on adoptogens. (Don’t know which one’s, but some of them will be to improve sleep quality, such as Bacopa).

Manifestations of testicular failure: Pre-puberty

  • Small testes; Smal penis & prostate; Lack of scrotal rugae and pigmentation; eunuchoidal skeletal proportions; delayed bone age; high pitched voice

Manifestations of testicular failure: Post-puberty

  • female fat distribution; FEMALE ESCUTCHEON; decreased facial & body hair; no temporal hair recession; decreased muscle mass; gynecomastia; decreased libido; osteoporosis later in life

And then theres… Causes of male Hypogonadism
Primary hypogonadism: genetic/developmental

  • Klinefelter’s syndrome (most common) [High FSH + High LH + low T + infertility]
  • Androgen resistance
  • Enzymatic defects
  • Germinal cell aplasia
  • Infection
  • Trauma
  • Radiation
  • Chemotherapy

Secondary male hypogonadism

  • Hypothalamic disease
  • Pituitary disease
  • Severe systemic illness

Pathways: GnRH (hypothalamus) ~> LH + FSH (anterior pituitary) ~> testosterone (LH stimulates testosterone synthesis)

My opinion:

  1. Just laying out some information that you might find useful but nonetheless, I don’t think you should be treatment planning yourself… If i were you I would check myself into a university based hospital and the best one that I can find at that. The Harvard equivalent in Australia I suppose.
  2. For endocrine disorders, I would not even bother seeing a GP until after diagnosis and treatment has already well undergone its way. Stick with the endos.
  3. If you really are going to persist on what you are currently doing, then can you please try to get a karyotype analysis (chromosome analysis) just to simply rule out Klinefelters? Make sure you don’t have an exta “X” in that XXY.
  4. You probably have a multi-systemic issue at play here… The undescended testicle/no hair and then you have the focusing issue… More than 1 specialty is definitely needed here.

I highly recommend option #1

I have an appointment with a endocrinologist in Novermber. He is a researcher based at the University of Adelaide and I will be using him as a second opinion. I think at the moment my body is doing ok with testosterone. Yes, testicles are small and I have pretty low TT, but my SHBG is dead low and free T is mid range. With a bit better diet and training this will go up a little more.

I can definantly see that there is going to be issues in the next 10-20 years, and I will be doing regular check ups for that.

I wish I pushed my current endo more. I was pretty out of it at that time.

I have a psychiatrist and an endocrinologist. Psychiatrist says I have had an anxiety disorder since 2010. It has dramatically imporved since then, but there are still problems here and there. I can fix these problems myself, but I need to divert what little energy have into other areas of my life at the moment. I actually fixed my own depression by self learning CBT. I can probably use the same principles for anxiety.

I do know that people with Klenfetler’s have pea sized testicles, this isn’t the case for me, mine are more like grapes. I will still get it done regardless.

Hey Shouk.

Can you post your CBC panel? Upload a picture of it, type it out, whatever you prefer.