T Nation

19 Year Old Australia, Symptoms of Low T


#1

Hello everyone.

Before I delve into my situation, I'll answer the questions highlighted in the stickies.

-age
19

-height
181

-waist
31"

-weight
82kg (17% bf)

-describe body and facial hair
always known to be completely hairless. Many girl have more hair on their arms then me, and I struggle to even grow sparse hair on my face. I started puberty at age 13-14 and stopped growing at around 16-17. No hair on chest.

-describe where you carry fat and how it's changed
I carry fat mostly on my ass and hips. Always have.

-health conditions, symptoms [history]
Diagnosed with depression for the last 5 years. (Since 14). From 14-18 depression was very severe, but I have not had any real symptoms of depression in the last 6 months. (I contribute this to self taught CBT?) I have been to 2 psychologists, 2 GP's and 1 psychiatrist during this period. None of them have helped.

-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever
Have taken Prozac and Citalopram for 3 months when I was around 16. Didn't help so I stopped taking it. I have never taken any drugs of that kind since. I am currently taking Modafinil daily to curb my symptoms.

-lab results with ranges
I was notified of my Low testosterone in February when I decided to have blood test after doing research on the connection between testosterone and my symptoms. Since then I have had 2 more blood tests.

Test 1

26th February 2013, Test done at 12 in the day.

Iron 20 umol/L (10-30)
Transferrin 2.33 g/L (2.1 - 3.8)
Saturation 34% (20 - 50)
Ferritin 133 ug/L (30 - 400)

Total Chol. 3.8 mmol/L
HDL Chol. 1.1 mmol/L (> 1.0)
LDL Chol. 2.5 mmol/L (< 2.5)
Triglyceride 0.5 mmol/L (< 1.5)

FSH 5 IU/L (1-8)
LH 3 IU/L (2-8)
Prolactin 3 ug/L (< 20.0)

TSH 2.42 mIU/L (0.5 - 5)
Free T4 14.5 pmol/L (9.0 - 25.0)

Total Testosterone 7.7 nmol/L (8.0 - 30.0)
SHBG 25 nmol/L (17 - 66)
FAI 30.8%

VIT B12 468 pmol/L (> 180)

Test 2

Same GP as with first test, conducted 2 weeks after the first. I asked the doctor to print first and second test. He was reluctant to print any of them, but he eventually just printed first test. (Don't even ask).

I remember for certain my Total Testosterone was at 4 nmol/L, but this test was done at around 3pm.

Test 3

I have just received back today. A different GP this time. Blood test done at 10 am.

Total Testosterone 13.1 nmol/L (10.0 - 28.0)
TSH 2.60 IU/L (0.30 - 4.20)
25 Hydroxy-Vit D 85 nmol/L (60 - 160)

-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]
I do not follow macro's. 130 - 160 gm protein a day. Average calorie intake of 2800 I'd say. I am pretty sure I eat adequate amounts of fat (> 150gms of fat a day).

-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]
Basic 4 day split. Day 1 Chest/Shoulders. Day 2 Back. Day 3 Legs. Day 4 rest. Repeat.

-testes ache, ever, with a fever?
Never. My testicles are slightly smaller then average.

-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed
Always have been invariable. Sometimes strong, sometimes pathetic.

I have not taken temperature ranges. I am starting this now. Will record for the next few days and will post results.

I have been utterly disappointed at the lack of care and knowledge of doctor's. My psychiatrist, who I was with for 3 years, diagnosed me with depression and told me to take pills. I did for the first 3 months, but stopped. Every time I went I never came out with any positive input. He'd always subtle point out that I am perfect, and that there really isn't anything wrong with me. Came to my senses and left. Used me as money making machine.

First GP wouldn't let me test E2, free testosterone, T3, fT3 etc etc. He said I didn't need to. I tried to persuade him for 5 minutes, but I didn't have studies as backup. When my T came back low he immediately prescribed me sustanon, which I knew immediately something that was not suitable for treatment and that particular time. Also gave me free trans dermal gel. I have the prescription and gel in my room for the last 2 months. I have not used them.

2nd GP is an absolutely dud. He said that as soon as I walked in he knew I had adequate levels of testosterone. This made me mad. I gave him a list of 20 things that I wanted to be tested, with some papers to backup. He said he only test for TT and Vit D because those are the only ones he can interpret.

Booking an appointment for a 3rd GP soon. Apparently she is very good and well rounded. I am lucky that GP visits are free.

A few extra points need to also be addressed:

  • I can build muscle mass and strength very quickly. In 2011 I started training, and trained for 7 months. Took a 12 month break. Started again. Going for 5 months strong. (Maybe I have high IGF-1?)

-I had un-descended testicles as a baby.

-I have had an MRI on my pituitary. No abnormalities. My prolactin was low anyway so I don't think that was a concern.

Current symptoms

-Intense brain fog. Takes alot of disciplne to concentrate. (studying Bach Mech Eng and Bach Sci Physics, still maintaining GPA 6.5)

-Low energy. About to full asleep when I enter the gym in most occasions. Yawn between sets. I still get Pb's consistency.

-No relief from sleep, even though I average 9-10 hours a night.

-Bouts of social withdrawal. I go through bouts of personality change. They occur regularly. For a dew days all I want to do is talk and go out. Few days after I don't even want to get out of bed. I have always had this inconsistency. On these bad bouts, I am not really depressed, I just don't want to talk.

-Very bad short term memory. It has been gradually becoming worse since the start of puberty (I remember being quick mentally). On really bad days I can't read sentences or understand what people are saying to me. I usually slur my speech. Long term memory, especially for conceptual understanding is good.

Overall, looking for a doctor that can let me get a full blood test done so I can see where I am at everywhere. I want a controlled and logical treatment plan (Test. Cyp or enth + hCG + AI), however I becoming more hopeless at achieving this in my state as medicine in this country is highly restricted.

Questions:
-How the hell am I gaining strength and mass so quickly with Low Testosterone levels? Barbell row at 220 lb x 5 rep, leg press at 900 lb x 4, bench press 260 lb x 2. I am clearly gaining more then all my mates.


KSman is Here
KSman is Here
KSman is Here
KSman is Here
#2

Have you looked at the thyroid basics sticky? Dry skin, feel cold easy, brittle nails?
TSH is elevated and fT4 is below mid range.

Please post temperatures in F and C degrees.

Total Chol. 3.8 mmol/L, is that considered high or low? Low can be a problem.

How to you react to mental and physical stress?

MaSc/BaSc Mech Eng here


#3

I have pretty oily skin, but I usually feel the cold much more. Just took my morning temp. 6:00 am — 96.7 F. We’ll see where I am at in a few days time. I have red the sticky. Used that information to try to get rT3 done but the Doctor wouldn’t listen.

On my blood test no range is given for total cholesterol.

Will be purchasing Iodine, Zinc and Vitamin D tomorrow. Iodine will be a must. Zinc and Vitamin D to facilitate testosterone production until I get treated. I’ll look into dosages. Looks like in the beginning, Iodine 12.5 - 50 mg per day until my temperatures go up and I feel warmer with more energy. Go down to smaller dose for maintenance. Probably will be first taking 50, 000IU vitamin D3 for the first few days/week to get my stores up and then supplement with around 20, 000IU everyday. Zinc initially 100 mg for a few days then go back down to 40 mg everyday.

I won’t be implementing this for the next few days as I get my temperatures done.

I am actually a very calm person. I used to be full of anxiety, to the point where I would shake and not talk for days. Fortunately those days are over. I am a very busy person at the moment and I really don’t have any mental stresses. Heck I did a 15 minute oral without a slideshow or cue cards last week and I got HD! lol I have 4 exams in 3 weeks, while working and training while traveling 2.5 hrs a day for university. I cope with stress really well know so I don’t think that’d be contributing alot to adrenal fatigue. Would be good to get cortisol tested

Winter has come. Last month or so I feel like I am ‘ramping down’. Probably primarily due to decreased Vitamin D3 levels.

I really want to get a comprehensive blood panel done before I start supplementing so I know where I am at. Should I not worry about this and take these supplements as soon as possible.?

What do you think could explain my gains in training? High growth hormone levels?

Is there a concern for my low prolactin levels? Prolactin increases after orgasm as well as after bonding. At the time I was pretty active so I don’t quite understand why that would be the case.

Nice, I still really have no idea what industry I want to get in. Interested in many things so I am keeping my options open. Really interested in quantum computing atm (Prob need M.Sc Elec Eng)


#4

And also, modafinil is a mild CNS with mechanisms different to that of methylphenidate, adderral, ritalin etc. My heart rate slightly increases when I am on it. It has anti-depressant effects on me, primarily due to the fact that it provides me with energy. I directly assocaite my mood to my energy levels. When I have energy I am king kong. It may increase my metabolism a little (consequently body temp) because it increases epinephrine levels. Also allows me to have INTENSE workouts, however Modafinil shoudn’t change too many of the lab factors.

Another question.

How much do you think weightlifting increases testosterone? I don’t want to increase my testosterone too much so that no doctor will give me TRT, even though I’ll probably still suffer with symptoms.


#5

Here are some temperature readings that I found in my room.

2nd June

6am — 96.7
640am — 97.4
12:30pm — 97.5

3rd June

7am — 96.9
450pm — 97.2
800pm — 97.3

4th June

630am — 97.1
900am —98.4
950am — 98.5

5th June

7am — 97.5

6th June

7am — 97.5

I know I have other measurements, but I lost the piece of paper …

I guess pretty indicative of hypothryoidism. Attributed to low T? Once TRT commenced this will resolve? I have bought Iodine, but I have not started supplementing yet.


#6

What kind of iodine?

Have you been tested for hashimotos?

Test BEFORE starting IR: ft3 ft4 tsh antibodies tgab tpo for hashimotos and tsi for graves. Be carful with iodine son. It can be dangerous…,


#7

Has anybody tested lh/fsh? Must do this… Prolactin looks good .

Testosterone will not correct the thyroid… The thyroid running inadiquitly could on the other hand play a role in other hormone systems.

Try not to get on testosterone… ESP with thyroid issues. You may not feel well at all…


#8

Low T can lower thyroid a bit, bit its more that low thyroid lowers T.

Quantum computing will be a very small job market, perhaps too narrow, might have the same career track as cold fusion.

Weight training really does not increase T.

From my point of view, I do not find labs that might be indicative of correctable nutritional deficiencies of interest when the problem is easily correctable. After you correct the problem, then labs have some future value. Doing labs first makes the data somewhat obsolete.

For now, thyroid is your action item. Keep us posted re IR developments. Ping me at the KSman is here thread.


I think that your total cholesterol is near 146 mg/dL. That is getting low. Levels of 160 and lower are associated with increased all cause mortality. 180 is considered ideal. You can increase your consumption of cholesterol rich foods.

You need to be looking for the cause of low-T and attempt to fix that. Low-T is a symptom. You seem to be looking for TRT, which is not addressing the root cause. Maybe you will need to go there. But keep the right attitude.


#9

Yes. I am definitely keeping my options open. I am looking to do post grad study and potentially a phd in one or the other disciplines, or probably a mixture of the 2 if I find some new abstract technology. I do not know what industry I am heading for yet, but if I need to slightly deviate into a field like Elec. Eng. I’ll do a masters if I so seem to fit.

You are right. I am fixated on TRT, but I am not totally addressing the issue at hand. I’ll have another read of the thyroid basics, and then I’ll start dosing.

I have been intermittent fasting for the last year. It’s more of a convenience then for any other reason, as I find it’s easier to work and concentrate when I don’t eat food in the morning. I’ll start eating more eggs and nuts.


#10

@iw84, I have not been tested for Hashimotos or graves. I’ll look into it. My LH is 3 and FSH 5 (as per OP).


#11

Your point of view is fine but loading iodine with thyroid issues that have nothing to do with iodine puts people In The hospital. I have seen this first hand so why can’t the person run the fucking labs first so they do t end up with a heart attack!!! Ya know what running around telling every person to load iodine isn’t even close to safe… It’s your opinion…

I do think your a smart guy but spend the day I. The Eemergency room with your friend havi g heart palpitations and tell me how you feel!! I was sick from it also and a lot of people onli e have had the same experiences…


#12

Or just load 50 mg and blow ur heart up


#13

The daily recommendations for Iodine are 150mcg. I do think that 50mg of iodine is quite excessive. Even if a deficiency is taken place, it’d be better to slowly recoop the iodine stores then to take it all in one go. I do know that Iodine can displace copper in the body, which can lead to imbalances in iron and other metals which are vital for proper function. I do know my multivitamin has copper in it, but I’ll be cautious.

On a side note, many of my symptoms seem to coincide with Hashimoto. Among the most prominent, I sometimes have a racing heart rate for no reason. It’s not a regular occurrence, but it happens more then what it normally should. I am incredibly sensitive to the cold. My morning temperature today was 96.6.

Once I go get to the endocrinologist, I’ll mention it to him, and I’ll make sure that I’ll get the test down before I leave.

The problem is that my TSH and T4 levels are in mid range, which makes me ‘normal’. If I come back negative with Hashimoto’s, then apart from sensible supplementation of Iodine, I do not know what else to do. (Except for importing L-Thyroxine, or whatever I need, illegally).

Thanks for highlighting your concerns.


#14

Ha!!! Exactly!! What is the rush??? I feel the exact same way… U could load small amounts over a long period of time and be a lot safer in my opinion… No problem my friend


#15

Proper tests for thyroid should be

Tsh

Ft3 not t3

Ft4 not t4

Tgab tpo for hashimotos

Tsi for graves

Rt3 from the adrenals sits in the receptors of t3 and doesn’t allow it into the cells… Check rt3 also :slight_smile:


#16

When you say tsh is mid way thAts 2.5 and that is a problem. Tsh should be around one… Doctors are stuck on ranges that are out dated and cost to much to change.


#17

Fingers crossed my endocrinologist is open minded. I really want to fix this up and move on!


#18

I have just read something that really sucks for you Aussies…

Your government like mine is in denial in a big way about Lyme disease.

Have you ever though of being tested?


#19

Yep. I think I’ll be able to obtain the results of the 2nd blood work form my doctor today. We just measure testosterone and E2 then. I am pretty sure my E2 was at 22 pg/L, which is ideal. But in reference to the ratio between T and E, I am completely out of balance. But, we will see when I obtain the results.


#20

Ok so I just got my 2nd blood test that I had mentioned in the op.

E2 21 pg/ml (<55pg/ml)
Total Testosterone 144 ng/dL (230-864)
SHBG 40%

Although E2 is perfect, ratio between test and estrogen is incredibly problematic. It shows I have high affinity to estrogen production. As E2 is the primary mechanism for regulating HPTA taking an AI would potentially:

  1. Convert less testosterone to estrogen. Decreasing ratio of E2:T
  2. Increase in LH and FSH production, furthermore enticing further testosterone levels.

It’s not a standalone, but I do feel that for me especially, an AI will have a huge role in TRT once I recieve treatment.

I of course need to seek the causality of my problem, and treat my hypothyroidism before seeking TRT treatment. However, could taking small amounts of arimidex, say 0.25mg E3D have a beneficial effect? I am looking for increased mental clarity and energy short term. Libido can wait.