T Nation

19-Nors and Libido


#1

(I'm hoping Bill will chime in on this)

So most of you regulars know how badly a short NPP cycle fucked up my libido. It was non-existent for about 6 months despite bloodwork coming back healthy.

So what gives? Why does nandrolone do this? 5 seconds on google will show you this problem is VERY common. I was actually one of the lucky ones as it only lasted months, as opposed to years!

Tren, on the other hand, despite being a very different compound (albeit from the same family) seems to cause long term libido suppression in a handful of users as well. Again, this can be the case even when bloodwork comes back with everything in the healthy range.

Is it caused by the same mechanism as nandrolone? Is it simply the case that the tren users who experience this have been given NPP instead?

And yes, I am just asking this to work out whether or not it'd be worth the risk using tren! Haha.


#2

[quote]Yogi wrote:
(I’m hoping Bill will chime in on this)

So most of you regulars know how badly a short NPP cycle fucked up my libido. It was non-existent for about 6 months despite bloodwork coming back healthy.

So what gives? Why does nandrolone do this? 5 seconds on google will show you this problem is VERY common. I was actually one of the lucky ones as it only lasted months, as opposed to years!

Tren, on the other hand, despite being a very different compound (albeit from the same family) seems to cause long term libido suppression in a handful of users as well. Again, this can be the case even when bloodwork comes back with everything in the healthy range.

Is it caused by the same mechanism as nandrolone? Is it simply the case that the tren users who experience this have been given NPP instead?

And yes, I am just asking this to work out whether or not it’d be worth the risk using tren! Haha.[/quote]

Lol it would be hilarious if you react similarly to your anadrol experience on tren.

“i wanna punch my fist though the fucking wall!!!” HAHHAHAHAH


#3

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
(I’m hoping Bill will chime in on this)

So most of you regulars know how badly a short NPP cycle fucked up my libido. It was non-existent for about 6 months despite bloodwork coming back healthy.

So what gives? Why does nandrolone do this? 5 seconds on google will show you this problem is VERY common. I was actually one of the lucky ones as it only lasted months, as opposed to years!

Tren, on the other hand, despite being a very different compound (albeit from the same family) seems to cause long term libido suppression in a handful of users as well. Again, this can be the case even when bloodwork comes back with everything in the healthy range.

Is it caused by the same mechanism as nandrolone? Is it simply the case that the tren users who experience this have been given NPP instead?

And yes, I am just asking this to work out whether or not it’d be worth the risk using tren! Haha.[/quote]

Lol it would be hilarious if you react similarly to your anadrol experience on tren.

“i wanna punch my fist though the fucking wall!!!” HAHHAHAHAH[/quote]

lol, the worst thing about the 2 weeks I managed to stay on drol was the feeling like someone was holding lit cigarettes against my nipples!


#4

So honest question…do you feel more productive with no libido? It seems if I were to take away all the time during the day I think about sex and focus it into something else I would have a Nobel Prize or something.


#5

I absolutely wouldn’t call this a property of 19-nor’s as a category any more than I’d say that catching on fire is a property of “liquids” just because gasoline will burn.

Nandrolone has rather potent progestagenic activity. As these effects are what I’d expect from a progestin, that may well be the full explanation, but even if not the full explanation, it’s enough reason to avoid using it for no particular reason, and to use only necessary dose if there is good reason.


#6

I would love to know this. NPP fucked me up 18 months ago. While things are certainly better, Libido/ability is still almost nonexistent a lot of the time.

I felt great ON NPP. It wasn’t until AFTER I went back to TRT that all the sides set in. I was a train wreck. Emotional, panic attacks, shaking, insomnia. just your basic train wreck. Diconnected from the real world. Like a walking day dream. I ran caber and AI throughout. Labs all came back fine.

I still feel this anxiety almost daily, I’d never had an ounce of anxiety prior to NPP.

I will never touch another 19-Nor. This crap seems to have rewired my brain!

A lot of the “deca dick” symptoms seem to mimic post finasteride syndrome.


#7

In contrast there is no scientific evidence of trenbolone having progestagenic activity, and no reason to suspect it from results with genuine trenbolone.

Simply being a 19-nor doesn’t cause progestagenic activity.


#8

On the duration of effect after discontinuing use: women, unfortunately, also routinely experience long term problem from synthetic progestins. For them it can take a year after discontinuance of use to feel normal again.


#9

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
On the duration of effect after discontinuing use: women, unfortunately, also routinely experience long term problem from synthetic progestins. For them it can take a year after discontinuance of use to feel normal again.[/quote]

I certainly felt like a woman when the sides first set in 18 months ago…

I never really feel improvements with time…but when I look back at where I was 6 months ago, I’m still making progress.


#10

[quote]Yogi wrote:
(I’m hoping Bill will chime in on this)

So most of you regulars know how badly a short NPP cycle fucked up my libido. It was non-existent for about 6 months despite bloodwork coming back healthy.

So what gives? Why does nandrolone do this? 5 seconds on google will show you this problem is VERY common. I was actually one of the lucky ones as it only lasted months, as opposed to years!

Tren, on the other hand, despite being a very different compound (albeit from the same family) seems to cause long term libido suppression in a handful of users as well. Again, this can be the case even when bloodwork comes back with everything in the healthy range.

Is it caused by the same mechanism as nandrolone? Is it simply the case that the tren users who experience this have been given NPP instead?

And yes, I am just asking this to work out whether or not it’d be worth the risk using tren! Haha.[/quote]

i dunno… i think it’s interesting how long NPP affects testosterone levels, and how long it actually remains in the body. based off this, one can expect it to remain for at least a couple weeks after a single 100 mg dose… and since it binds so strongly to the AR and PR, i’ve assumed that prolactin can remain an issue for that long after ending it’s usage…


#11

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
(I’m hoping Bill will chime in on this)

So most of you regulars know how badly a short NPP cycle fucked up my libido. It was non-existent for about 6 months despite bloodwork coming back healthy.

So what gives? Why does nandrolone do this? 5 seconds on google will show you this problem is VERY common. I was actually one of the lucky ones as it only lasted months, as opposed to years!

Tren, on the other hand, despite being a very different compound (albeit from the same family) seems to cause long term libido suppression in a handful of users as well. Again, this can be the case even when bloodwork comes back with everything in the healthy range.

Is it caused by the same mechanism as nandrolone? Is it simply the case that the tren users who experience this have been given NPP instead?

And yes, I am just asking this to work out whether or not it’d be worth the risk using tren! Haha.[/quote]

i dunno… i think it’s interesting how long NPP affects testosterone levels, and how long it actually remains in the body. based off this, one can expect it to remain for at least a couple weeks after a single 100 mg dose… and since it binds so strongly to the AR and PR, i’ve assumed that prolactin can remain an issue for that long after ending it’s usage…

[/quote]

I didn’t have time to read the entire article, but it sounds interesting…Thanks for posting.


#12

So, is 350mg deca + 350mg test that much better than just 700mg test? I have no experience but would like to know if anyone can quanify between the two cycles.


#13

[quote]Ned wrote:

I felt great ON NPP. It wasn’t until AFTER I went back to TRT that all the sides set in. I was a train wreck. Emotional, panic attacks, shaking, insomnia. just your basic train wreck. Diconnected from the real world. Like a walking day dream. I ran caber and AI throughout. Labs all came back fine.

[/quote]

I wonder what the deal with our labs coming back fine is? Is it that something’s been fucked up that they just don’t test for?

I feel for you, dude. Sounds like you had it way worse than I did.


#14

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
In contrast there is no scientific evidence of trenbolone having progestagenic activity, and no reason to suspect it from results with genuine trenbolone.

Simply being a 19-nor doesn’t cause progestagenic activity.[/quote]

so there’s no need to use a dopamine agonist with tren? Why then do so many people report gyno on tren which is fixed by caber?


#15

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Ned wrote:

I felt great ON NPP. It wasn’t until AFTER I went back to TRT that all the sides set in. I was a train wreck. Emotional, panic attacks, shaking, insomnia. just your basic train wreck. Diconnected from the real world. Like a walking day dream. I ran caber and AI throughout. Labs all came back fine.

[/quote]

I wonder what the deal with our labs coming back fine is? Is it that something’s been fucked up that they just don’t test for?

I feel for you, dude. Sounds like you had it way worse than I did.[/quote]

I really feel like nandrolone must affix to receptor sites for so long(as bill referred to) or render them useless for a very very long period of time in some. You could have perfect levels of everything, but if no receptor site can or is willing to use it you are fucked. I’ve read about some guys needing to use 2x or 3x times the Test cyp dose for TRT after a Nandrolone cycle to get the same feeling as prior.

I’ve read about Deca messing with neurotransmitters in the brain.

The problem is that no one ever runs blood work prior to Nandrolone. We never have a solid baseline. We only see bloods after the fact.


#16

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
In contrast there is no scientific evidence of trenbolone having progestagenic activity, and no reason to suspect it from results with genuine trenbolone.

Simply being a 19-nor doesn’t cause progestagenic activity.[/quote]

so there’s no need to use a dopamine agonist with tren? Why then do so many people report gyno on tren which is fixed by caber?[/quote]

I have to conclude it’s from adulterated or entirely substituted product. Trenbolone is much more expensive per kilo than most other steroids. I don’t involve myself with the various UG products at all, but those who do repeatedly find UG trenbolone to very commonly be adulterated or entirely substituted.

These problems weren’t occurring from pharmaceutical Parabolan or from injectables made from Finaplix H. They started appearing only with the UG products and to now as well, it seems to happen only with those.


#17

you’re blowing my mind here, Bill.

Does tren have the same binding affinity at the AR? If you were to have problems, for whatever reason, would they be as long lasting as nandrolone, in your opinion?


#18

Trenbolone acetate is very short acting, half life about a day.

The enanthate has a half life that’s probably about 5 days give or take.

I’ve never heard of problems lasting beyond periods of use, other than recovery problems of a sort that probably would have happened regardless of the particular product chosen. (Probably would have happened due to bad planning which fully explains the problem.)


#19

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Trenbolone acetate is very short acting, half life about a day.

The enanthate has a half life that’s probably about 5 days give or take.

I’ve never heard of problems lasting beyond periods of use, other than recovery problems of a sort that probably would have happened regardless of the particular product chosen. (Probably would have happened due to bad planning which fully explains the problem.)[/quote]

Bill,

Let’s use NPP for example, the half life of this should only be a couple of days. But I’ve read that the Nandrolone Metabolites can last in someones system and be Drug test detectable for 18 months or longer, the actual ester doesn’t matter in regards to the metabolites of a substance.

Am i tracking here or did i get led astray?


#20

It’s true; the reason is that in a first step, NPP hydrolyzes to give free nandrolone, and then in a second step, a very small part of that reesterfies with natural fatty acids in the body, particularly stearic acid, giving nandrolone stearate.

Nandrolone stearate becomes stored in body fat and remains present in the body for a very extended time.

The amounts wouldn’t be enough to be significant biologically I think, but can be detected by GC/MS.