T Nation

18Y/O on TRT. Brain Fog, Low Libido, Fatigue. Could Use Some Help

My estrogen definitely skyrocketed. I remember I gained about 10 pounds in a week, I was super emotional, and my face puffed up really bloated. Can confirm it was high estrogen because these symptoms resolved when I added AI. If ur question was referring to lab numbers, never got labs done. I’m going in for a TT/FT/E2 lab soon just to make sure that’s locked down. Last test I got was on the day before a weekly 200mg test injection, came back TT around 512.

Free t is important. Can’t do anything with total t. It could also be an imbalance if shbg is fudged up. High estrogen when free t is low.

One might feel great with a free t of 25 and estrogen of 45. Feel horrid if free t is 10 and estrogen is 45. I see it happening all the time, but not many studies solidifying this comments I made. So take it for what it’s worth.

Scrotal cream makes much less estrogen than injections. So trying that is a good choice, but again we don’t know where free t is when you had estrogen symptoms. It could of been fixed by daily injections or maybe even lowering free t if it was to high.

As you can tell many variables. You need the right labs to Find a diagnosis. Or a doc who has seen hundreds of patients for HRT. Not a clinic that is more a sales shop than a pravtice where docs are working towards fixing you and dialing you in.

The point is that it’s illegal and ideally I’d rather not have to possess and worry about acquiring illegal substances for the rest of my life. However, if these pharmacy’s exist, this could be a real option for me. I ran 50mg proviron everyday for a month or two and my libido was there. Completely normal erectile function. Have you ordered from either of those sources in the past? I’m considering ordering a couple tabs of the cheap proviron-ver to see if the pharma is legit.

I have not used them. Not approved does not always equal illegal, BTW. But I have not checked the legality either. I’m in Central America most of the time doing volunteer work, so I’m not anywhere that can be delivered to. But everything that’s available is OTC. HCG is $50 cash and carry for 5000 IU’s. Cypionate is around $5 I think for 250 mg and list goes on. Everything is legal here, but not everything is available.

@beak118

I’m chiming in because I’ve experienced a lot of what you have and ED wise I’m way better. I’ve been on 12mg Subutex for 8+ yrs (you can imagine what I was on before that), 300mg wellbutrin xr for 5 yrs and had very little sex drive plus I wouldn’t get fully hard.

Wellbutrin takes at least 6 weeks before you will get any effect from it and really takes 8-12 belt you can say if it’s working or not. I know 4 other people on wellbutrin and all of them in the beginning said it had no effect but after a few months it really helped them. Not sure about ED wise though.

I have high prolactin 21 (5-15 range) and am about to start P5P after reading studies showing it’s basically as effective as cabergoline at bringing down prolactin and without the horrible side effects. You mentioned P5P. Did you ever take it?

My total T is 2000, free is 35, E2 is 77 and prolactin is 21 (5-15 range). I’ve been on the same protocol for 6 months now and have amazing sex drive and raging hard-ons. I wake up every morning with a sword between my legs. My levels are too high for most people but I feel good. Especially since I found out I was anemic and have started supplementing Iron daily. It’s been the final missing link for me as far as energy and mentally feeling like a human again. I notice that the higher my E2 is the better my libido is.

When you were on 200mg+/week of T did your sex drive get any better than before? Or was it unaffected? I noticed that anastrozole even at .125mg killed my ability to get hard.

Great thread!

you have alot of great insight man! I can relate to you on the dopamine issue im curious to see what works for you. I generally feel the same about what you said about the “nofap” thing too I was taking p5p at one point to manage proaction because I noticed I would feel like shit/ less libido for a while after sex and thought that may have something to do with it . however due to my own past use of various pharmaceuticals etc I feel the dopamine desensitization may be a very real thing. I try to be as natural as possible these days and would hate to be dependent on another medication / long term effects of things that would be prescribed to fix that

When I first started TRT, I would go 100mg E3.5D and 1mg anastrazole On injection day. On this protocol, no libido, but morning erections on trough days. I was on 28mg ED, 0.25mg AI ED, and 75mg proviron ED. On this, I had solid libido and morning erections. I think I could adjust this protocol by simply lowering testosterone dosage to account for dropping proviron. I should note that on the proviron protocol, I was supplementing with a lot of tyrosine. It’s effects libido-wise were acute the first one or two times, then started to wear off somewhat. Maybe it was switching my protocol that helped my libido? And I attributed it to tyrosine just because I started taking it at the same time?

I think I blew the whole dopamine thing out of the water. At least in my case, I think my issue is just switching my protocol too much and not allowing my body to adjust. But I’ve tried P5P, didn’t notice any effect on libido but had gnarly dreams on it.

Imo those who start high have more issues.

There are few people on this forum including me that do bet 80-100 mg total a week divided in 2 doses.

But we get into this manly mindset that we want more.
I did too and ended up back on 88 mg a week.

I think we would here more success stories if guys would start at 100 total a week. Then wait 2 months to see how you feel. That’s the hard part.

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Are those coupons there all the time for when you want to fill the rx? I am considering going to injections and the only thing holding me back is injections are more than the cream I am on now. If that is the case and I can just get my doc to send the prescription there I will more than likely do it.

Goodrx has cheap coupons for test cyp.

All I do Is print them out and give to pharmacy when I go to pick up script.

Forgot to update this thread after I made some changes. I took the advice of some of the guys on this thread (as well as all over the T-Replacement category) and lowered my AI.

My thinking was this: I felt better when I initially lowered my testosterone dosage, so I must’ve had high estrogen. I kept lowering the test dose thinking I would keep feeling better. I never lowered my AI though, and may have driven my estrogen too low. Then I got all the low estrogen symptoms at once. Heavy fatigue, felt like shit, ZERO emotion, ZERO desite to be social, no morning wood, no libido. Was a weird few weeks where I really separated myself from my friends. Two nice things though, I was really driven to work and ended up pushing through a couple weeks of 12-14 hour days, and I got really dried out in the gym. Another’s thing I noticed was that, low estrogen + my daily 5mg cialis = low blood pressure. When I ran proviron (and had a good libido) and the higher test dosage, I was very vascular and my veins appeared very thick and full. While I had low estrogen those past few weeks, my veins were very visible, however they were super thin and constricted. Since lowering my AI dosage, they have gotten back to looking normal and healthy.

Anyway, I stopped taking my AI for two days and immediately the low e symtpoms subsided. I resumed for one week at 1/2 my old AI dose (0.25EOD), then have since been doing 2/3 (2 days on, 1 day off) the dose that I was on. I’ve been feeling my libido coming back very slowly and my energy levels are pretty good. I’m going to continue this for a couple more weeks and then assess how I feel and get bloodwork for TT/FT/E2.

I’m in the process of ordering proviron in bulk to run at the same dose as I used to. I’m considering, when I add proviron, lowering my AI back to 1/2 my old dose (0.25EOD) considering proviron has an anti-estrogenic effect.

Overall things are looking hopeful! Any input on this post is very appreciated.

Just updating the thread with what’s going on.

I ordered proviron from the same source as earlier this year. When it ships in, I’m going to run all the same doses that I had at that point in the year (I ran proviron earlier this year on a different protocol and felt great, no symptoms) I’m assuming that at some point a few weeks after resuming that protocol, my libido will come back strong to where it was the first time. Immediately when I notice this, I’m going to get TT/FT/E2/DHT/SHBG bloodwork done. Then, I will continue the protocol and if I notice any decline in benefits, I will get bloodwork again and see what adjustments to make from there.

Sure, running an illegal substance for the rest of my life isn’t the ideal situation, but if it can offer a solution to the problems I’ve been having in the short term (short term being my youth, bear in mind I’m only 19 so this could mean the next 10 years), Im just going to suck it up and do it. I really have no problem with it other than that proviron is illegal, because I felt great on that protocol.

Also, I want to add that I’ve gotten very serious about the aforementioned cut in this thread. Currently, I’m down 14lbs in the past month and a half, now I’m at 222.4 with weights in the gym staying relatively the same. I know Aromatase is in body fat (or that there is some correlation there). I plan on continuing this cut til I reach around 210-215. Should I be wary of the estrogen conversion rate within my body decreasing, warranting a need to decrease AI?

I went back through some of this thread and have a question. Did you ever do a regular PCT through any of this? Just Nolva 40/40/20/20/20 or Clomid?

I tried tamoxifen from the same peptide company I got the cabergoline from. Now I think both the caber and the tamoxifen were bunk, but I started TRT back in November. I suppose I could try a PCT, but I’d really rather avoid just another hormonal rollercoaster like the first couple months I was on TRT with estrogen going way too high then low. Perhaps if I had the money sometime in the future for frequent bloodwork and actual medical supervision, I could attempt a PCT. I’ve been on HCG my entire therapy, granted the dosage has been adjusted a couple times, but I’ve noticed relatively little to no testicular atrophy. I actually think my testicular size corresponds somewhat to my estrogen (specifically estrogen imbalances). Back when I was really dialed in on the proviron in March/April and had a really strong libido, my testicles were firm and normal sized, maybe even slightly larger, and hung normally. Times that I’m not dialed in, such as before and after that period, they tuck up towards my body and seem smaller and tender. regardless of size, I believe the HCG has preserved testicular function, warranting a PCT in the future.

As of right now, I’m at a too important part of my life to suffer attempting a PCT without supervision. My doctor seems pretty unintelligent on a lot of things, and I don’t have the money to switch to defy or whoever and pay for bloodwork.

My source is saying the proviron order should’ve arrived today. I will add that I ordered a 10ml vial of testosterone cyp in the order, just to have extra on hand in case I run into trouble refilling my own. I’ve had times where I’ll miss an injection or two because I can’t refill until literally the day I run out… really annoying.

I’m going to start the proviron as soon as I pick it up and will report back how it goes.

You seem a little unclear on what some of these things do. HCG mimics LH, so your balls would be working the entire time, in proportion to you dose of HCG.
Proviron is a “weak” androgen, in the same family as Anavar. It would absolutely improve libido, but is suppressive (there is some argument about this) as it is an androgen in your system and will affect pituitary signalling. In other words, you total test will actually drop on it due to decreased production.
PCT is not just about testicular function, you are signalling the pituitary to wake up and start putting out LH.Without the LH or HCG your balls do nothing.
Your big problem has been too many moving parts, and a lack of patience honestly.

Sorry for late response. I’m aware of how HCG works, mimicking LH. They are very similarly structured (I think). By preserving testicular function, I was trying to say that basically my testicles have been producing testosterone throughout the course of my therapy in response to HCG administration.

I agree that I’ve been very impatient. The whole process has just been frustrating. I believe what really sent me in the wrong direction was realizing how well I responded to tyrosine. I now realize that anybody would probably experience a strong boost in libido from dosing tyrosine so high, but it made me think that I was dopamine deficient and I started trying all different solutions to that.

You might be dopamine deficient just from low free T, actually. You need free T to fuel the production of catecholamines and serotonin. The high dose tyrosine probably burned out some receptors. You have to be a little careful with that, serotonin and dpoamine are produced in a balance via the same pathway. You can kill production of one by overdoing production of the other. For example, high dose 5 HTP will ramp p serotonin levels and make you feel great, but crash the dopamine followed by a serotonin crash.

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To add on to that, I have a question for the TRT community. Has anyone else felt better on a lower dose of TRT? I’m looking for experience libido-wise between differences like 200mg weekly and 100mg weekly. I know the recommended starting dose is 100, but I’ve never dipped below 140 for fear that my situation would only get worse. Doesn’t it make sense that, regardless of dose, higher TT/FT with E2 in control would result in a higher libido? I’m still sticking on my current dose for the remaining 4 weeks before I get stable, accurate bloodwork, but I’m just curious the answer to this question. If my results come back and my TT is +1000 or something and E2 is within reason, I think it’d be worth trying getting my TT down to 700-800. I ask because of a thread on this forum all about feeling better on a lower dose. How have people felt with higher TT/FT vs lower TT/FT but the same E2 in both cases? Is the T:E ratio important?

I’ve realized my issues aren’t really based in neurotransmitters and have to be hormonal. My doses/levels had been steady for a month or two during that period where my libido was strong. I experience joy and have never felt any depression throughout the course of my therapy, so I really doubt that dopamine deficiency is related in any significant way to my lack of libido.

I’ve added in the proviron and will be testing bloodwork in 4 weeks after being on the same dose for a total of 6 weeks. I will make further adjustments from there, but no other changes until then.