[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
The pic attached is 25lbs of weight gain between the months of April and August last year.[/quote]
Nice job there guy!
[/quote]
Thanks.
GOMAD and twice a day training plus sensible eating worked well 
[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:
Iāve since adjusted my mindset to one of āraise the work volume before dropping the caloriesā and am up 10-15lbs. Iām also leaner, and am judged as much more impressive by the same standards. I HIGHLY recommend that you try to keep calories up while adding work volume by making use of a higher-volume training plan or adding conditioning volume on top of whatever training program you already have.
If you insist on restricting calories, make sure itās only for a short term or as part of a more cyclical approach that has you at a more reasonable caloric total MOST OF THE TIME.[/quote]
I was taught to work up to my calories. Removing calories is the last thing I do. My baseline daily while on a cut is 3000-3200 calories.
[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
If calories are all that matters, please explain why you canāt eat a breakdown of 60% carbs 20% fat and 20% protein and look decent. [/quote]
If youāre trying to look ādecent,ā youāre going into it with the wrong mindset. Aiming for anything but āfat loss with 100% muscle retentionā is not going to lead to great results. Obviously you wonāt get that, but if you go into the diet willing to give up muscle, youāll probably give up more than you need to.
I did a diet with similar caloric restriction to what you outlined. I lost 30-35lbs (220ish-185ish) over about four months, and started to look āgoodā by normal standards. That level of leanness was not even remotely sustainable and Iād pack on 5-10lbs every time I refed and had even ānormal personā quantities of food. My strength went to shit as well.
Iāve since adjusted my mindset to one of āraise the work volume before dropping the caloriesā and am up 10-15lbs. Iām also leaner, and am judged as much more impressive by the same standards. I HIGHLY recommend that you try to keep calories up while adding work volume by making use of a higher-volume training plan or adding conditioning volume on top of whatever training program you already have.
If you insist on restricting calories, make sure itās only for a short term or as part of a more cyclical approach that has you at a more reasonable caloric total MOST OF THE TIME. The previously-mentioned RFL would probably be effective. You could use other similar approaches, but it is very unlikely that you will retain a substantial amount of muscle with a breakdown like 60/20/20 with breakfast. If youāre fucking around with any calories that arenāt from protein or veggies on a diet that works through heavy calorie restriction, they should probably come around workouts.
Thatās my .2, and Iām speaking from experience. Take it or leave it- Iām not one of the coaches you mentioned above, and Iām sure as hell not trying to look ādecent.ā
Edited.[/quote]
What youāve said makes sense. Youāre a lot bigger than me and I was kind of expecting to gain muscle doing this. Iām not the sort of person who would keep doing this if it didnāt work or if I started losing strength.
Iām still a relative beginner, a very dedicated one who is serious about getting big but none the less I can get away with things that other lifters probably couldnāt because of that.
Lately Iāve been really broke and havenāt been able to afford much food and I havenāt lost weight or strength luckily. Some muscle has probably been lost but Iāve been eating about 1200 calories a day which has been driving me mad but when I start eating the 1600 calorie a day diet. Iāll be getting more calories than I am now, with a consistent daily intake of calories.
At some point I know that 1600 calories obviosuly wont be enough to sustain any form of muscle gain. I was banking on good cardio and good clean living to lose some fat. I like to do a lot of volume anyway, but I do that through increased frequency such as twice daily training.
I would like to be able to cut while eating more calories but Iām not sure that would even work considering I usually gain so much weight on like 2200-2400 calories. Maybe I should take advantage of that and just do a load of cardio to try and pretty much not just avoid fat gain during a bulk but actually lose fat during. What do you think?
[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:
You could use other similar approaches, but it is very unlikely that you will retain a substantial amount of muscle with a breakdown like 60/20/20 with breakfast.
[/quote]
I never thought about it like that. I naively assumed that breakdown didnāt matter per meal and assumed that it was more important to have the right breakdown overall at the end of the day.
What sort of breakdown do you think is best for breakfast?
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
I never thought about it like that. I naively assumed that breakdown didnāt matter per meal and assumed that it was more important to have the right breakdown overall at the end of the day.
What sort of breakdown do you think is best for breakfast?[/quote]
If I were in your position, I would probably do this for a general meal breakdown:
-Breakfast optional
-All meals except the postworkout meal protein/fats only
-Postworkout meal of protein/carbs
Iām not saying that this is the BEST way to do it or anything like that. Ideal carb timing is a somewhat controversial matter, but I donāt think anyone will say that postworkout carbs are a BAD idea. I like to keep things simple, and backloading carbs while keeping to only protein/fats before my workout (or running a straight intermittent fasting approach) are what I find to be the best combination of simple/effective/easy to schedule. Again, thatās just what I would do in your place.
EDIT: To an extent I agree that what matters MOST is the breakdown on the day. Itās nothing to lose your mind over, but I do think that strategic carb timing can make a difference for helping to maintain workout intensity in the face of caloric restriction. I seem to be able to get away with a higher carb intake even when cutting when I time them that way.
[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
I never thought about it like that. I naively assumed that breakdown didnāt matter per meal and assumed that it was more important to have the right breakdown overall at the end of the day.
What sort of breakdown do you think is best for breakfast?[/quote]
If I were in your position, I would probably do this for a general meal breakdown:
-Breakfast optional
-All meals except the postworkout meal protein/fats only
-Postworkout meal of protein/carbs
Iām not saying that this is the BEST way to do it or anything like that. Ideal carb timing is a somewhat controversial matter, but I donāt think anyone will say that postworkout carbs are a BAD idea. I like to keep things simple, and backloading carbs while keeping to only protein/fats before my workout (or running a straight intermittent fasting approach) are what I find to be the best combination of simple/effective/easy to schedule. Again, thatās just what I would do in your place. [/quote]
My breakfast is usually based on digestion. I get a really bad stomach from eating certain things / too much of certain things. Would what Iāve already outlined for breakfast be ok?
I have to agree I think carbs pre and post-workout are best. I mentioned that I like to train twice a day. Usually I do that in a push/pull/legs split 6x a week, 3 on 1 off. I was considering doing a 5 day split this year but training once a day. Mainly because the frequency of my twice daily training usually prevents me from using as much weight as I would if I was well rested. Itās possible that I will stick with the twice a day training though. If I do should I therefore be having carbs 4x a day pre-workout 1, post-workout 1, pre-workout 2 and post-workout 2? Or would you personally just put those carbs in the post-workout periods instead?
By far the hardest thing for me is getting enough protein. 6 Chicken breasts here cost Ć?ĆĀ£10. Eating 3 breasts a day is under 100g protein but costs Ć?ĆĀ£5 a day, per week thatās Ć?ĆĀ£35 which is just on chicken. I canāt imagine being able to afford more than that to be honest with you and red meat is even more expensive.
Protein shakes are awesome but Iām sure you agree any more than 2 a day you get sick of them fastā¦
Last year my dietary staples were milk and eggs. Great for bulking but I canāt even look at an egg now and Iām actually lactose intolerant. I had teh poops for the duration of my bulk lol
I wanted a slightly easier to deal with diet this year. I might not be able to though.
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
I never thought about it like that. I naively assumed that breakdown didnāt matter per meal and assumed that it was more important to have the right breakdown overall at the end of the day.
What sort of breakdown do you think is best for breakfast?[/quote]
If I were in your position, I would probably do this for a general meal breakdown:
-Breakfast optional
-All meals except the postworkout meal protein/fats only
-Postworkout meal of protein/carbs
Iām not saying that this is the BEST way to do it or anything like that. Ideal carb timing is a somewhat controversial matter, but I donāt think anyone will say that postworkout carbs are a BAD idea. I like to keep things simple, and backloading carbs while keeping to only protein/fats before my workout (or running a straight intermittent fasting approach) are what I find to be the best combination of simple/effective/easy to schedule. Again, thatās just what I would do in your place. [/quote]
My breakfast is usually based on digestion. I get a really bad stomach from eating certain things / too much of certain things. Would what Iāve already outlined for breakfast be ok?
I have to agree I think carbs pre and post-workout are best. I mentioned that I like to train twice a day. Usually I do that in a push/pull/legs split 6x a week, 3 on 1 off. I was considering doing a 5 day split this year but training once a day. Mainly because the frequency of my twice daily training usually prevents me from using as much weight as I would if I was well rested. Itās possible that I will stick with the twice a day training though. If I do should I therefore be having carbs 4x a day pre-workout 1, post-workout 1, pre-workout 2 and post-workout 2? Or would you personally just put those carbs in the post-workout periods instead?
By far the hardest thing for me is getting enough protein. 6 Chicken breasts here cost Ć??Ć?ĆĀ£10. Eating 3 breasts a day is under 100g protein but costs Ć??Ć?ĆĀ£5 a day, per week thatās Ć??Ć?ĆĀ£35 which is just on chicken. I canāt imagine being able to afford more than that to be honest with you and red meat is even more expensive.
Protein shakes are awesome but Iām sure you agree any more than 2 a day you get sick of them fastā¦
Last year my dietary staples were milk and eggs. Great for bulking but I canāt even look at an egg now and Iām actually lactose intolerant. I had teh poops for the duration of my bulk lol
I wanted a slightly easier to deal with diet this year. I might not be able to though.
[/quote]
Iām really not sure how to time carbs most effectively when working out twice per day on a cut, honestly. I donāt want to make any recommendations there because I havenāt tried it. Youād have to try some different things and see what you like best based on digestion/results.
I understand where youāre coming from with the chicken. Chicken breasts arenāt particularly cheap here, especially when shooting for 1-2g per lb BW. I personally eat a rotisserie chicken a day, since I can get them from a wholesaler for $5 a chicken (which is 200-225g of protein depending on how much I want to pick at the thing lol). Do they sell those over there?
[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:
I understand where youāre coming from with the chicken. Chicken breasts arenāt particularly cheap here, especially when shooting for 1-2g per lb BW. I personally eat a rotisserie chicken a day, since I can get them from a wholesaler for $5 a chicken (which is 200-225g of protein depending on how much I want to pick at the thing lol). Do they sell those over there?[/quote]
Yeah they do. Theyāre tiny though so Iām not sure how much protein they containā¦ Iāll have to check it out and see. As long as theyāre cheaper than chicken breasts then itās all good.
I did start eating chicken legs/wings for a while as they were a lot cheaper than the breasts too and I just threw Jamaican Jerk Seasoning over the stuff and cooked in the oven for like an hour. Tasted great but I started getting massive stomach aches from them and so did my girlfriend. Not sure if it was the seasoning or the chicken but it put me off. Shame really as I think it can be a lot tastier than Chicken Breastsā¦
Firstly, good job on the weight gain. You look much bigger than before.
Iām also cutting and it took me ages to decide on how many calories. Iām totally OCD about calories and ratios, so much so that I made a database to track every aspect of my diet. Iām even tracking fibre down to the gram. This isnāt always a good move though; It has delayed many of my diets and making changes based on weekly results is a pain. If you can avoid it (I canāt), itās probably best not to get too hung up on exact ratios and counting every gram of protein etc. It will probably just slow you down. However, I still think it is good to have a ballpark figure to start off with. For your weight and bodyfat, Iād say start on around 2200-2300 calories at 35% protein, 45% carbs and 20% fat. Possibly 40/40/20. Then throw in a high calorie day once or twice a week (around 2800-2900 at 30/50/20) and make sure you train hard. I like an upper/lower split. Monday and Thursday are upper body workouts and Tuesday and Friday are lower body workouts. Wednesday and Saturday I do HIIT for about 30 minutes. Depending on results you may need to add in another HIIT workout each week. Over time you may need to lower calories to about 2000, but only do this if you have to. Itās better to burn the fat, than to starve the muscles.
Personally, I wouldnāt jump in at 1600 calories. Thatās V-Diet territory. I did a V-Diet in 2010 and although it āworkedā (11.7 lbs lost in first 4 weeks), I felt like utter shite drinking only 1400-1500 calories on rest days and 1800-1900 on workout days. Unless you are planning on competing, donāt make fat loss a race. Calories as low as that just arenāt optimal or sustainable. You will more than likely rebound.
Iām not a Doctor or fitness professional; I speak purely from experience. I did my V-Diet while dealing with IBS and injuries, but I made it work. I also feel your pain with respect to the price of chicken and quality meat in general. The upside of being on a cutting plan is that you can save money on other food as you wonāt need as much and spend the savings on quality protein.
Ultimately, itās your body and you know it better than anyone. So if your body says ādonāt eat itā, then donāt. If you canāt lose fat on more that 1600 caloriesā¦ then you probably arenāt training hard enough. There are always alternatives and being human, you will always find a way to get what you need.
Good luck.
Iām sorry but those pix look almost exactly alike, only the one on the right looks like it was taken from a closer distance.
#urdoingitwrong #justsaying
[quote]misterjaydubyoo wrote:
1200-1600 calories? For who, women?[/quote]
Bear in mind youāre a much bigger guy than the OP. If you ate 1600 calories a day, youād die. The OP is only going from the low 2000ās to 1600. Iād say thatās an acceptable drop.
I donāt know if the OP should necessarily cut at this point though.
[quote]qsar wrote:
[quote]misterjaydubyoo wrote:
1200-1600 calories? For who, women?[/quote]
Bear in mind youāre a much bigger guy than the OP. If you ate 1600 calories a day, youād die. The OP is only going from the low 2000ās to 1600. Iād say thatās an acceptable drop.
I donāt know if the OP should necessarily cut at this point though.
[/quote]
youād be surprised what the body can handle.
Iāve given Lyle McDonaldās RFL quite a bit of my time, and I must say, it works quite well. I dropped something like 12-13lbs of water and fat in a 3 week time span and made some pretty sexy visible changes. I know many others have had success as well.
OP, just do that. No need to rethink the wheel.
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
[quote]misterjaydubyoo wrote:
Lmao[/quote]
Are you really that ignorant to deny evidence that you donāt need to eat 3000 calories plus to gain weight?
Fool.[/quote]
Are YOU really that ignorant? While eating that amount might work for YOU, it certainly doesnāt work for everyone, especially those on this board.
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
The pic attached is 25lbs of weight gain between the months of April and August last year.[/quote]
Nice job there guy!
[/quote]
Thanks.
GOMAD and twice a day training plus sensible eating worked well :)[/quote]
Wait a minute, you had a gallon of milk a day? If you had whole milk, thatās 2400 calories a day right there. You said you ate less than that.
[quote]jCaesar88 wrote:
Iām sorry but those pix look almost exactly alike, only the one on the right looks like it was taken from a closer distance.
#urdoingitwrong #justsaying[/quote]
iād have to agree. Plus, call me an asshole, but doling out advice at your level is not necessarily something people are going to take all that well. At least i sure as hell wouldnāt.
hey op, arent you bruceleefan?
I thought you killed yourself!
[quote]eightohfive wrote:
[quote]jCaesar88 wrote:
Iām sorry but those pix look almost exactly alike, only the one on the right looks like it was taken from a closer distance.
#urdoingitwrong #justsaying[/quote]
iād have to agree. Plus, call me an asshole, but doling out advice at your level is not necessarily something people are going to take all that well. At least i sure as hell wouldnāt.[/quote]
Well the OP is not handling criticism the best way possible, but to be fair he did specify that his diet was for people at his level.
As others have argued, we can say that there are plenty of proven cutting plans out there - no need to re-invent the wheel.
I do see improvement between the images. Do you guys think that based on the images, he should not go on a cut?
[quote]James Brown wrote:
Firstly, good job on the weight gain. You look much bigger than before.
Iām also cutting and it took me ages to decide on how many calories. Iām totally OCD about calories and ratios, so much so that I made a database to track every aspect of my diet. Iām even tracking fibre down to the gram. This isnāt always a good move though; It has delayed many of my diets and making changes based on weekly results is a pain. If you can avoid it (I canāt), itās probably best not to get too hung up on exact ratios and counting every gram of protein etc. It will probably just slow you down. However, I still think it is good to have a ballpark figure to start off with. For your weight and bodyfat, Iād say start on around 2200-2300 calories at 35% protein, 45% carbs and 20% fat. Possibly 40/40/20. Then throw in a high calorie day once or twice a week (around 2800-2900 at 30/50/20) and make sure you train hard. I like an upper/lower split. Monday and Thursday are upper body workouts and Tuesday and Friday are lower body workouts. Wednesday and Saturday I do HIIT for about 30 minutes. Depending on results you may need to add in another HIIT workout each week. Over time you may need to lower calories to about 2000, but only do this if you have to. Itās better to burn the fat, than to starve the muscles.
Personally, I wouldnāt jump in at 1600 calories. Thatās V-Diet territory. I did a V-Diet in 2010 and although it āworkedā (11.7 lbs lost in first 4 weeks), I felt like utter shite drinking only 1400-1500 calories on rest days and 1800-1900 on workout days. Unless you are planning on competing, donāt make fat loss a race. Calories as low as that just arenāt optimal or sustainable. You will more than likely rebound.
Iām not a Doctor or fitness professional; I speak purely from experience. I did my V-Diet while dealing with IBS and injuries, but I made it work. I also feel your pain with respect to the price of chicken and quality meat in general. The upside of being on a cutting plan is that you can save money on other food as you wonāt need as much and spend the savings on quality protein.
Ultimately, itās your body and you know it better than anyone. So if your body says ādonāt eat itā, then donāt. If you canāt lose fat on more that 1600 caloriesā¦ then you probably arenāt training hard enough. There are always alternatives and being human, you will always find a way to get what you need.
Good luck.[/quote]
Thanks for the input. Iām considering using more calories since everyone is so adamant that I canāt do it this low.
Unrelated but curious. How do you gain size doing an upper/lower? Surely itās hard to get enough exercises in to hit all the muscles efficiently?
[quote]Rocky2 wrote:
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Mr_White wrote:
The pic attached is 25lbs of weight gain between the months of April and August last year.[/quote]
Nice job there guy!
[/quote]
Thanks.
GOMAD and twice a day training plus sensible eating worked well :)[/quote]
Wait a minute, you had a gallon of milk a day? If you had whole milk, thatās 2400 calories a day right there. You said you ate less than that.[/quote]
I was having no fat milk and to be honest I rarely managed a gallon a day so I was fibbing a bit. Maybe like half or 3/4 on a good day. I just couldnāt keep a whole gallon down.
[quote]qsar wrote:
[quote]eightohfive wrote:
[quote]jCaesar88 wrote:
Iām sorry but those pix look almost exactly alike, only the one on the right looks like it was taken from a closer distance.
#urdoingitwrong #justsaying[/quote]
iād have to agree. Plus, call me an asshole, but doling out advice at your level is not necessarily something people are going to take all that well. At least i sure as hell wouldnāt.[/quote]
Well the OP is not handling criticism the best way possible, but to be fair he did specify that his diet was for people at his level.
As others have argued, we can say that there are plenty of proven cutting plans out there - no need to re-invent the wheel.
I do see improvement between the images. Do you guys think that based on the images, he should not go on a cut?[/quote]
Iāve had mixed reception about it.
Some guys say I should others say to keep bulking. I personally am not happy how I am now, so either less fat or more muscle has to be better than that pic. Iām about 5lbs heavier than in that picture right now. Not much overall difference in physique though.