15 YO Girl Spanked by Principal

16 will get you 20. I’d still fucking hit it though.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I don’t have a problem with corporal punishment in the home (within reason of course). But I wouldn’t be alright with a grown man spanking my 15-year-old daughter. I wouldn’t be alright with a grown man touching my 15-year-old daughter’s ass in any way (didn’t see if he used a paddle, but it doesn’t much matter to me), unless it was a doctor performing some kind of necessary procedure.

Not to mention: 15 is far too old for this shit. It sends the message that you can make a serious mistake, at an age which is very quickly approaching adulthood, and suffer the same kind of punishment administered to a 6-year-old who stole some cookies from the cookie jar. When you fuck up in the real world you suffer real consequences. Treating teens like toddlers doesn’t help prepare them for the real life that they are about to be rocketed into.[/quote]

If it hurts…like, if it hurts like it’s supposed to hurt, 15 is most certainly NOT too old. But then, if it hurts like it’s supposed to hurt, 15 year old girls, or boys. won’t be opting for it.

That’s supposed to be the point.

Look to Singapore as a successful model of the principle applied.

I do think that most spankings are wasted on anyone over the age of six. That said, I’m not so naive to believe that sometimes the standard tools that most educators are allowed are always sufficient. Sometimes a bit of violence is exactly what a certain kind of kid understands, respects, even.

It’s not for always, though. It’s just one more tool in the toolbox.

*edited for typos[/quote]

As I understand it, you work in the field Cortes, so I won’t argue that it doesn’t have utility. I do still believe that by fifteen years old kids should be getting punished in a more adult manner. If you cheat on a test in high school, you get spanked. If you cheat on your taxes the year after you graduate…not that simple.

But that aside, what about the part about a grown man paddling your (attractive) daughter’s asscheeks? Don’t you think think we could figure out a less sexualized form of punishment?

In case anyone doesn’t think this sexualized, consider this: a grown man slams you on the wrist or the upper back with a hard piece of wood. Another grown man bends you over and spanks you. Assuming that the amount of pain is exactly equal, which scenario seems less palatable to you on snap judgement?

My guess for most t-men is scenario B. And there’s a visceral reason for that.[/quote]

If the punishment is carried out as it is intended to be carried out, that is, as an administration of short, acute, non-injurious pain with an added component of shame, intended to deter misbehavior, then I certainly do not see any difference. It’s a school, not a porno movie. Plus, the reason the butt is used as the go-to spot for corporal punishment is that using almost any other part of the human anatomy will vastly increase the likelihood of injury.

Yes, it should be carried out with more than one person in the room, but not publicly, and certainly not in front of classmates. It should never be done without the prior consent of the parent, whether that be explicitly or via an opt-out policy.

Aaaaall of that said, I think that in almost every case, there is a more effective solution that does not involve violence. However, NOT having the option available is enough to cause problems in itself. That’s the situation we have now in many public schools, where kids will purposely act out in order to have themselves removed from the classroom.

Again, it should be one tool in a toolbox full of options.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I tend to agree in most cases…that is until I actually saw some of the kids my mom had to deal with.

Many of these kids can not be controlled through any normal means and the parents do not reprimand their child at home.

It places any authority figure in a rough position when they are placed in front of a group of untrained people and you are told you can’t train them…but you need to get all of this knowledge over here into their head anyway.

Every kid doesn’t become reformed from a time out.[/quote]

^^^^Just bumping this quote because I completely agree with it and it is exactly the kind of situation I am referring to.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
As a teacher/administrator/principal myself, I will say that I have used physical force in an extremely limited amount of situations that I judged necessary at that moment in time. Not paddling, and non-injurious, but my point was made quickly and bluntly. I will say that those very few instances (I can literally count them on one hand) were the trigger for a few boys (they were all boys) who were comparable to animals to turn into nice kids whose own parents couldn’t believe the degree of self-control, respect and motivation they demonstrated at my school thereafter.

The tricky thing is that this has to be done by someone who really doesn’t want to do it. [/quote]

Do you mean that you had physically restrain a student or along those lines? I’m not opposed to that if it’s absolutely necessary to avoid someone say potentially being hurt or one that is out of control atm. As a form of punishment I don’t like it but to control a potentially volatile situation, sometimes this needs to be.

I particularly am fond of your last sentence. This has always been a belief of mine - never give the person the job that wants it too much. [/quote]

In the only situations where I’ve used it, there was a clear, egregious show of defiant disrespect, in front of the rest of the students, to the owner of the school and teacher of the class (me) that called for immediate answer. In those situations, I snapped forward, grabbed the kid hard by the arm and pretty well carried him out of the room. The rest of the punishment was a standard scolding along with an explanation of what would happen from there. The physical component was not enough to injure, just enough to hurt, and fast and unexpected enough to surprise and scare the hell out of him. None of these kids were used to having their feral challenges answered, and this quickly and decisively established authority and defined the boundaries as to what is acceptable and what is not.

If I had been unable to touch these kids, my only option would be to have them leave, which would be unfair to the child, selfish of me, and would also diminish my authority before the rest of the class. It would be a lose/lose for all.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.
[/quote]

I know the conversation has moved on but I have to go back to this quote because it is so far out in fairytale land that it actually made me laugh out loud. The problem isn’t your kids or you, or parents like you. The problem is that there are too many parents with kids who are not like you and NEVER WILL BE. It’s not going to happen.

You talk about throwing responsibility back on parents, who have never even been responsible for themselves and never will be. Yet you expect them to take responsiblity for their children? I can’t fathom how you expect that to work.

I’m sorry for picking on you, you come across as a very good person and a great parent, but your thinking is so bizarre it’s fascinating. As far as spanking goes I’m all for it if it is done before the whole school. I don’t think the pain is as much a factor in maintaining discipline as the public humiliation.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
As a teacher/administrator/principal myself, I will say that I have used physical force in an extremely limited amount of situations that I judged necessary at that moment in time. Not paddling, and non-injurious, but my point was made quickly and bluntly. I will say that those very few instances (I can literally count them on one hand) were the trigger for a few boys (they were all boys) who were comparable to animals to turn into nice kids whose own parents couldn’t believe the degree of self-control, respect and motivation they demonstrated at my school thereafter.

The tricky thing is that this has to be done by someone who really doesn’t want to do it. [/quote]

Do you mean that you had physically restrain a student or along those lines? I’m not opposed to that if it’s absolutely necessary to avoid someone say potentially being hurt or one that is out of control atm. As a form of punishment I don’t like it but to control a potentially volatile situation, sometimes this needs to be.

I particularly am fond of your last sentence. This has always been a belief of mine - never give the person the job that wants it too much. [/quote]

In the only situations where I’ve used it, there was a clear, egregious show of defiant disrespect, in front of the rest of the students, to the owner of the school and teacher of the class (me) that called for immediate answer. In those situations, I snapped forward, grabbed the kid hard by the arm and pretty well carried him out of the room. The rest of the punishment was a standard scolding along with an explanation of what would happen from there. The physical component was not enough to injure, just enough to hurt, and fast and unexpected enough to surprise and scare the hell out of him. None of these kids were used to having their feral challenges answered, and this quickly and decisively established authority and defined the boundaries as to what is acceptable and what is not.

If I had been unable to touch these kids, my only option would be to have them leave, which would be unfair to the child, selfish of me, and would also diminish my authority before the rest of the class. It would be a lose/lose for all. [/quote]

This type of approach was very common when I was a student in elementary school. For the most part it worked well or at least for a period of time afterwards. It’s hard to say at what point you draw the line. I do see where this would have its time and place.

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.
[/quote]

I know the conversation has moved on but I have to go back to this quote because it is so far out in fairytale land that it actually made me laugh out loud. The problem isn’t your kids or you, or parents like you. The problem is that there are too many parents with kids who are not like you and NEVER WILL BE. It’s not going to happen.

You talk about throwing responsibility back on parents, who have never even been responsible for themselves and never will be. Yet you expect them to take responsiblity for their children? I can’t fathom how you expect that to work.

I’m sorry for picking on you, you come across as a very good person and a great parent, but your thinking is so bizarre it’s fascinating. As far as spanking goes I’m all for it if it is done before the whole school. I don’t think the pain is as much a factor in maintaining discipline as the public humiliation. [/quote]

No offense taken. I’ve got a pretty thick skin and I don’t feel picked on.

Thank you for the compliments on my parenting but I believe that it’s not living in a fantasy world that has worked for me but more so being a realist. People get away with what you let them get away with. If some people think that someone else will do their job or clean up their mess, they will gladly let them. If it’s not the parents responsibility then whose is it? Does my child need to suffer and have their education fall behind because so and so’s child can’t control their behavior and their parents are too lazy to reprimand them for it? If you apply that logic to any other situation in life, it almost seems ludicrous.

Let me put it to you this way, I was a very good child, a good student, almost a second mother in my house growing up. I was very polite, shy and respectful. My brother was bad. Like really, really bad. ADHD and a host of other behavior issues. Part of his problem was legitimate, I believe. The other part of it was also my parents not dealing with his behavior and laying down the law. He got into so much trouble at school that he had to be removed and sent to another school for children with behavior issues and he was also placed on meds. His classroom did better without all of his disruptions and he did better because it forced my parents to make a decision and find a school appropriate for his needs. He had smaller classes, more individualized attention and more counseling time. Anyways, he still lacked structure and discipline at home and didn’t make much of himself.

The above is not a perfect solution by any means at all, however, it allowed the children that DO behave to carry on and without the unfair disruptions and poor behavior.

There are laws and systems in place for people that choose not to take care of their children. Hold the parents responsible for their actions or lack thereof. Once again, not the perfect solution but why does everyone else have to suffer because of one child that doesn’t understand social rules and boundaries?

It’s not that difficult. When my son was small if he had an unruly friend, I would explain the rules to them and if they broke them - time to go home. You can’t come here anymore.

If there are classes geared to different intellect levels, why not behavioral levels also, if needed? What’s the ideal solution? You tell me.

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.
[/quote]

I know the conversation has moved on but I have to go back to this quote because it is so far out in fairytale land that it actually made me laugh out loud. The problem isn’t your kids or you, or parents like you. The problem is that there are too many parents with kids who are not like you and NEVER WILL BE. It’s not going to happen.

You talk about throwing responsibility back on parents, who have never even been responsible for themselves and never will be. Yet you expect them to take responsiblity for their children? I can’t fathom how you expect that to work.

I’m sorry for picking on you, you come across as a very good person and a great parent, but your thinking is so bizarre it’s fascinating. As far as spanking goes I’m all for it if it is done before the whole school. I don’t think the pain is as much a factor in maintaining discipline as the public humiliation. [/quote]

Agreeing like a mutherfucker.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.
[/quote]

I know the conversation has moved on but I have to go back to this quote because it is so far out in fairytale land that it actually made me laugh out loud. The problem isn’t your kids or you, or parents like you. The problem is that there are too many parents with kids who are not like you and NEVER WILL BE. It’s not going to happen.

You talk about throwing responsibility back on parents, who have never even been responsible for themselves and never will be. Yet you expect them to take responsiblity for their children? I can’t fathom how you expect that to work.

I’m sorry for picking on you, you come across as a very good person and a great parent, but your thinking is so bizarre it’s fascinating. As far as spanking goes I’m all for it if it is done before the whole school. I don’t think the pain is as much a factor in maintaining discipline as the public humiliation. [/quote]

Agreeing like a mutherfucker.[/quote]

Shocker!!! lol

Not caring like a mutherfucker.

Nope, 15 year olds are borderline trainee adults IMO & therefore, they should be treated as such. If this young lady was just 6-12 months older & still in mainstream education in the UK she wouldn’t have been spanked, given lines, had a rather firmly worded sent to her parents etc…she would have been thrown out of school/sixth form college. Simple.

The more we treat OLDER kids & adolescents etc like naughty kids the more in many ways they’ll act like them.

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Nope, 15 year olds are borderline trainee adults IMO & therefore, they should be treated as such. If this young lady was just 6-12 months older & still in mainstream education in the UK she wouldn’t have been spanked, given lines, had a rather firmly worded sent to her parents etc…she would have been thrown out of school/sixth form college. Simple.

The more we treat OLDER kids & adolescents etc like naughty kids the more in many ways they’ll act like them. [/quote]

No offense to the parents here but I remember what being 15 was like. There were 15 year old girls giving blow jobs in the janitor’s closet to the guys who had been held back a year or two.

I agree, she should have been hanged…naked…in front of the school.

When my brother was in elementary school, he was such a disruptive little bastard that my dad personally gave the Principal permission to paddle him.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.
[/quote]

I know the conversation has moved on but I have to go back to this quote because it is so far out in fairytale land that it actually made me laugh out loud. The problem isn’t your kids or you, or parents like you. The problem is that there are too many parents with kids who are not like you and NEVER WILL BE. It’s not going to happen.

You talk about throwing responsibility back on parents, who have never even been responsible for themselves and never will be. Yet you expect them to take responsiblity for their children? I can’t fathom how you expect that to work.

I’m sorry for picking on you, you come across as a very good person and a great parent, but your thinking is so bizarre it’s fascinating. As far as spanking goes I’m all for it if it is done before the whole school. I don’t think the pain is as much a factor in maintaining discipline as the public humiliation. [/quote]

No offense taken. I’ve got a pretty thick skin and I don’t feel picked on.

Thank you for the compliments on my parenting but I believe that it’s not living in a fantasy world that has worked for me but more so being a realist. People get away with what you let them get away with. If some people think that someone else will do their job or clean up their mess, they will gladly let them. If it’s not the parents responsibility then whose is it? Does my child need to suffer and have their education fall behind because so and so’s child can’t control their behavior and their parents are too lazy to reprimand them for it? If you apply that logic to any other situation in life, it almost seems ludicrous.

Let me put it to you this way, I was a very good child, a good student, almost a second mother in my house growing up. I was very polite, shy and respectful. My brother was bad. Like really, really bad. ADHD and a host of other behavior issues. Part of his problem was legitimate, I believe. The other part of it was also my parents not dealing with his behavior and laying down the law. He got into so much trouble at school that he had to be removed and sent to another school for children with behavior issues and he was also placed on meds. His classroom did better without all of his disruptions and he did better because it forced my parents to make a decision and find a school appropriate for his needs. He had smaller classes, more individualized attention and more counseling time. Anyways, he still lacked structure and discipline at home and didn’t make much of himself.

The above is not a perfect solution by any means at all, however, it allowed the children that DO behave to carry on and without the unfair disruptions and poor behavior.

There are laws and systems in place for people that choose not to take care of their children. Hold the parents responsible for their actions or lack thereof. Once again, not the perfect solution but why does everyone else have to suffer because of one child that doesn’t understand social rules and boundaries?

It’s not that difficult. When my son was small if he had an unruly friend, I would explain the rules to them and if they broke them - time to go home. You can’t come here anymore.

If there are classes geared to different intellect levels, why not behavioral levels also, if needed? What’s the ideal solution? You tell me.[/quote]

As you said in one of our earlier exchanges, you and I agree about more things than we disagree about. You bring up a couple of interesting points here that I think bear thinking about. You mention yourself and your brother. Two kids, same home and I assume same parents and similar approach to discipline etc. Very different outcomes. My wife and her younger sister are a very similar story. Parent your children how you will, they are still their own people with their own temperaments and personalities. What “works” for one child may very well not for another. Your parenting strategies work for you and your child. We take a similar approach with our daughter and also find, so far, that it works (mostly). You mention in another post that you don’t have “super powers”. No, but maybe we are both fortunate to have children who are somewhat predisposed to being kind, reasonable people and who are therefor fairly receptive to reasonable disciplinary strategies? Maybe our children are fortunate to be raised in loving, stable home environments that are conducive to healthy development? I sincerely believe that this is not true of every child, even if their parents try to do it “right” (whatever that means).

Extrapolating that to a classroom setting is it not reasonable to imagine that there would be a kids who would fall all along this continuum? Take it further to the scenario Prof X describes with the inner city school where a disproportionate number of kids are coming from a background that puts them in some way “at risk”. Then immerse them in a culture that is nearly bereft of positive role models, where crime, poverty, drug use, disdain for authority and domestic chaos are the norm. Then further compound that with the near certainty that their nutritional status is highly compromised (which shows a definite link to ADHD/behavioural issues). Now put them in an ugly, violent, overcrowded environment where, regardless of their personal values, they and their peers are trying to fit into street culture because it’s all they see. Suddenly you have, what maybe 70 out of the 85 kids who might be crammed into a given classroom who are like your brother on crack (perhaps literally). Now give that school NO funding because it’s tax base is underemployed, impoverished and densely populated. Alternative school? For the majority of kids in districts with no money? I don’t know. Alternative school for the few who are somewhat reasonable? Maybe.

If you demand these kids leave school until they behave, IMO they will simply leave, as in drop out. They were likely to do that anyway so maybe we should cut to the chase and only teach the 10-15 kids out of that hypothetical 85 who are somewhat reasonable? You begin with the assumption that the majority of their parents are functioning human beings who are psychologically capable of stepping up and taking responsibility for their kids if someone forces them. In short, you think that they are at least somewhat like you. Sadly this is simply not the case. If you are living in “fantasy land”, this is where the disconnect takes place IMO. I’m not talking about income as I don’t know your situation (although income is definitely a factor). I’m talking about basic mentality. You are suggesting that if people could be decent, reasonable and responsible circumstances would improve. This is undeniably true. However they are obviously disinclined to do so or the problem wouldn’t exist in the first place.

I don’t know what the ideal solution is. A sudden widespread outbreak of decency and reason sounds good, but I don’t know how you implement that on a social scale.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

If you demand these kids leave school until they behave, IMO they will simply leave, as in drop out. They were likely to do that anyway so maybe we should cut to the chase and only teach the 10-15 kids out of that hypothetical 85 who are somewhat reasonable? You begin with the assumption that the majority of their parents are functioning human beings who are psychologically capable of stepping up and taking responsibility for their kids if someone forces them. In short, you think that they are at least somewhat like you. Sadly this is simply not the case. If you are living in “fantasy land”, this is where the disconnect takes place IMO. I’m not talking about income as I don’t know your situation (although income is definitely a factor). I’m talking about basic mentality. You are suggesting that if people could be decent, reasonable and responsible circumstances would improve. This is undeniably true. However they are obviously disinclined to do so or the problem wouldn’t exist in the first place.

I don’t know what the ideal solution is. A sudden widespread outbreak of decency and reason sounds good, but I don’t know how you implement that on a social scale.[/quote]

When did bats get a brain like this?

I agree…there is a FREAKING HUGE segment of the population that raises their kids on the profession of turning tricks and ducking from upper cuts from the customers. If you think it is even half way probable that society could work if we just removed all of these kids from the class room, you watched a little too much Disney growing up and not enough Cops.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
There are laws and systems in place for people that choose not to take care of their children. Hold the parents responsible for their actions or lack thereof. Once again, not the perfect solution but why does everyone else have to suffer because of one child that doesn’t understand social rules and boundaries?

If there are classes geared to different intellect levels, why not behavioral levels also, if needed? What’s the ideal solution? You tell me.[/quote]

I agree that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their children. Publicly beat them with the kids. I am dead serious. Not with a cane, not to leave physical marks, but emotional, psychological marks, absolutely. Public humiliation is one of the oldest forms of discipling errant individuals and enforcing social norms, and probably goes back before spoken language. But in the current political/social atmosphere we all know this is not going to happen. Maybe soon, but lets not get into that.

As to removing the children. That’s also not going to happen. The schools already don’t have the funding to do their jobs as is (at least they claim they don’t), setting up special classes where the special cases get special treatment will cost too much and the vast majority of school systems will never have the funding or the intelligence to do it well or at all. Kicking the kids out is even worse as the shitty parents will continue to do nothing and the kids will go even more feral. You might as well suggest taking them out in the woods and shooting them, it would be better for society as a whole.

My solution is extremely simple. Corporal punishment. It has worked extremely well since the dawn of human history. Letting children physically abuse their teachers while dropping the hammer on teachers who strike back is not working at all on any level. Not because of parents like you but because of, well, just about everyone else. You are the one advocating abandoning a practice that is proven to work, so the burden is on you to provide a better solution. Fastasyland daydreams are not a solution.

I have worked in rough places and with very rough kids and have concluded that as bad as the abusive druggie for raising feral kids is the overly sweet parent. They may even have the edge on abusive/addict types for producing nasty kids in early years.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I have worked in rough places and with very rough kids and have concluded that as bad as the abusive druggie for raising feral kids is the overly sweet parent. They may even have the edge on abusive/addict types for producing nasty kids in early years.
[/quote]

Agreed.

They may raise a slightly different flavour of nasty kids, but it hardly matters.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
If it hurts…like, if it hurts like it’s supposed to hurt, 15 is most certainly NOT too old. But then, if it hurts like it’s supposed to hurt, 15 year old girls, or boys. won’t be opting for it.

That’s supposed to be the point.

Look to Singapore as a successful model of the principle applied.

I do think that most spankings are wasted on anyone over the age of six. That said, I’m not so naive to believe that sometimes the standard tools that most educators are allowed are always sufficient. Sometimes a bit of violence is exactly what a certain kind of kid understands, respects, even.

It’s not for always, though. It’s just one more tool in the toolbox.
[/quote]

I agree with this. I think that if the parent hasn’t been consistently discipling their child from the get go 15 years old is too late. 5 might even be too late. But a little bit of fear, fear of pain, and especially fear of being humiliated in front of their class may be enough to keep the vast majority in line. It won’t make them straight A students, but at least they won’t be as disruptive to the ones that are actually trying to learn.

I agree with what most of you are saying. I spent half of my childhood in Spain, sometimes attending a private Opus Dei school and sometimes in public school. Both schools allowed corporal punishment. The Opus Dei school, as you can probably imagine, happily encouraged it. And kids were kept in line.

But, as you get older, that kind of thing works less and less. I think a fifteen year old should be treated about as close to an adult as possible. That, in my mind, takes spanking off the table.

Plus, I just can’t imagine that, if I were a father, I’d be alright with my teenage daughter getting spanked by a grown man.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.
[/quote]

I know the conversation has moved on but I have to go back to this quote because it is so far out in fairytale land that it actually made me laugh out loud. The problem isn’t your kids or you, or parents like you. The problem is that there are too many parents with kids who are not like you and NEVER WILL BE. It’s not going to happen.

You talk about throwing responsibility back on parents, who have never even been responsible for themselves and never will be. Yet you expect them to take responsiblity for their children? I can’t fathom how you expect that to work.

I’m sorry for picking on you, you come across as a very good person and a great parent, but your thinking is so bizarre it’s fascinating. As far as spanking goes I’m all for it if it is done before the whole school. I don’t think the pain is as much a factor in maintaining discipline as the public humiliation. [/quote]

No offense taken. I’ve got a pretty thick skin and I don’t feel picked on.

Thank you for the compliments on my parenting but I believe that it’s not living in a fantasy world that has worked for me but more so being a realist. People get away with what you let them get away with. If some people think that someone else will do their job or clean up their mess, they will gladly let them. If it’s not the parents responsibility then whose is it? Does my child need to suffer and have their education fall behind because so and so’s child can’t control their behavior and their parents are too lazy to reprimand them for it? If you apply that logic to any other situation in life, it almost seems ludicrous.

Let me put it to you this way, I was a very good child, a good student, almost a second mother in my house growing up. I was very polite, shy and respectful. My brother was bad. Like really, really bad. ADHD and a host of other behavior issues. Part of his problem was legitimate, I believe. The other part of it was also my parents not dealing with his behavior and laying down the law. He got into so much trouble at school that he had to be removed and sent to another school for children with behavior issues and he was also placed on meds. His classroom did better without all of his disruptions and he did better because it forced my parents to make a decision and find a school appropriate for his needs. He had smaller classes, more individualized attention and more counseling time. Anyways, he still lacked structure and discipline at home and didn’t make much of himself.

The above is not a perfect solution by any means at all, however, it allowed the children that DO behave to carry on and without the unfair disruptions and poor behavior.

There are laws and systems in place for people that choose not to take care of their children. Hold the parents responsible for their actions or lack thereof. Once again, not the perfect solution but why does everyone else have to suffer because of one child that doesn’t understand social rules and boundaries?

It’s not that difficult. When my son was small if he had an unruly friend, I would explain the rules to them and if they broke them - time to go home. You can’t come here anymore.

If there are classes geared to different intellect levels, why not behavioral levels also, if needed? What’s the ideal solution? You tell me.[/quote]

As you said in one of our earlier exchanges, you and I agree about more things than we disagree about. You bring up a couple of interesting points here that I think bear thinking about. You mention yourself and your brother. Two kids, same home and I assume same parents and similar approach to discipline etc. Very different outcomes. My wife and her younger sister are a very similar story. Parent your children how you will, they are still their own people with their own temperaments and personalities. What “works” for one child may very well not for another. Your parenting strategies work for you and your child. We take a similar approach with our daughter and also find, so far, that it works (mostly). You mention in another post that you don’t have “super powers”. No, but maybe we are both fortunate to have children who are somewhat predisposed to being kind, reasonable people and who are therefor fairly receptive to reasonable disciplinary strategies? Maybe our children are fortunate to be raised in loving, stable home environments that are conducive to healthy development? I sincerely believe that this is not true of every child, even if their parents try to do it “right” (whatever that means).

Extrapolating that to a classroom setting is it not reasonable to imagine that there would be a kids who would fall all along this continuum? Take it further to the scenario Prof X describes with the inner city school where a disproportionate number of kids are coming from a background that puts them in some way “at risk”. Then immerse them in a culture that is nearly bereft of positive role models, where crime, poverty, drug use, disdain for authority and domestic chaos are the norm. Then further compound that with the near certainty that their nutritional status is highly compromised (which shows a definite link to ADHD/behavioural issues). Now put them in an ugly, violent, overcrowded environment where, regardless of their personal values, they and their peers are trying to fit into street culture because it’s all they see. Suddenly you have, what maybe 70 out of the 85 kids who might be crammed into a given classroom who are like your brother on crack (perhaps literally). Now give that school NO funding because it’s tax base is underemployed, impoverished and densely populated. Alternative school? For the majority of kids in districts with no money? I don’t know. Alternative school for the few who are somewhat reasonable? Maybe.

If you demand these kids leave school until they behave, IMO they will simply leave, as in drop out. They were likely to do that anyway so maybe we should cut to the chase and only teach the 10-15 kids out of that hypothetical 85 who are somewhat reasonable? You begin with the assumption that the majority of their parents are functioning human beings who are psychologically capable of stepping up and taking responsibility for their kids if someone forces them. In short, you think that they are at least somewhat like you. Sadly this is simply not the case. If you are living in “fantasy land”, this is where the disconnect takes place IMO. I’m not talking about income as I don’t know your situation (although income is definitely a factor). I’m talking about basic mentality. You are suggesting that if people could be decent, reasonable and responsible circumstances would improve. This is undeniably true. However they are obviously disinclined to do so or the problem wouldn’t exist in the first place.

I don’t know what the ideal solution is. A sudden widespread outbreak of decency and reason sounds good, but I don’t know how you implement that on a social scale.[/quote]

This post reminds me of the 4th season of The Wire.

My situation involves kids who already have parents who care (my school is extracurricular, like piano lessons), most of the kids want to be there in the first place, AND they are Japanese

…and STILL, situations arise against which none of the typical first-resort disciplinary actions has any effect. From that point on, you can either give up, or apply second-resort actions.

I can only imagine how hard it must be for teachers who do not own their own school, are hog-tied by bureaucratic regulations and pie-in-the-sky rules, and a room full of kids whose ideas of authority are more in line with those of the middle east thanthe middle class, half of whom are on-track to being dead or in jail before they turn 25. Unless, of course, they are guided from that path by someone who has every tool at his disposal.

To be honest, I was surprised to hear that so many states actually do still allow for corporal punishment. My brother was told when he started teaching (in Texas), that it’s okay if students hug you, but you are not allowed to hug back. This pretty much epitomized for me the sad state that the US is headed toward. Where a person who demonstrates love for a child is eyed as a potential pervert, and a person who dutifully punished a child is…eyed as a potential pervert.