T Nation

15 YO Girl Spanked by Principal

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Being the mother to a 16 y/o boy with a girl on the way any day now, I would go ballistic if school administration laid their hands on either one of them. Discipline and behavior problems are my issue to deal with as a parent. If my child has created that much of an issue at school, call me and I will pick them up and deal with it, my way.

Not that any child is perfect or behaves completely all of the time, but when I go to parent/teacher interviews, every single one of them tells me and my husband that my boy is quiet, well-mannered, well liked and very pleasant to have in class. He also does very well in school and is an athlete with lots of friends. He was taught, at home, how to be that way.

The teachers and administration are employed to teach children how to read/write/etc, not to lay hands or any other implements for that matter. I’m not anti-spanking at all but it is my decision.[/quote]

Yours probably aren’t the kids who’d be getting, or needing, paddling.

Yeah, but parents aren’t taking that responsibility. I have seen with my own eyes parents watch their kid slap another kid hard as hell and they say NOTHING. I have seen a kid spit on an adult and the parent said NOTHING. There are too many kids today raised by parents who do not take the time to raise their kids or reprimand them at all…then they turn around and accuse the schools of hurting their kid when that school is forced to deal with hundreds of kids like this while teaching them all algebra.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Being the mother to a 16 y/o boy with a girl on the way any day now, I would go ballistic if school administration laid their hands on either one of them. Discipline and behavior problems are my issue to deal with as a parent. If my child has created that much of an issue at school, call me and I will pick them up and deal with it, my way.

Not that any child is perfect or behaves completely all of the time, but when I go to parent/teacher interviews, every single one of them tells me and my husband that my boy is quiet, well-mannered, well liked and very pleasant to have in class. He also does very well in school and is an athlete with lots of friends. He was taught, at home, how to be that way.

The teachers and administration are employed to teach children how to read/write/etc, not to lay hands or any other implements for that matter. I’m not anti-spanking at all but it is my decision.[/quote]

As I’ve said, I don’t support spanking in schools, but don’t you think teachers and administrators need some method of managing behavioural issues that arise throughout the day?
Especially with kids whose parent’s may not be as engaged as you are or who are unable to come down to the school to deal with every transgression?

We put our teachers in a position of authority, as we do any adult to whom we entrust the custody of our children. Authority is not authority if it doesn’t have “teeth”.[/quote]

I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.

Sometimes the school blows things out of proportion and calls home about ridiculous things. I even had that happen once when my son came to school with a pen that had an LED light in it. I simply asked them “Did you really call me at work because of this?” It did not happen again. There are other more serious issues that do need some kind of intervening though. As I mentioned earlier, detention, suspensions, etc for more serious offenses.

If the parents don’t have time to deal with it, what makes them think the school does? You need to look out for the majority of the students that do behave and are there to learn. If you’ve been given several chances and you keep being disruptive and causing various altercations, find another school to take you.

I see what you mean by having “teeth”. I have spanked my son once. Every other time that I needed to assert my authority, I found other ways to do it. My husband and I do have much authority over the house and we are able to do it through establishing rules, explaining expectations and having consequences for inappropriate actions. It works.

As a teacher/administrator/principal myself, I will say that I have used physical force in an extremely limited amount of situations that I judged necessary at that moment in time. Not paddling, and non-injurious, but my point was made quickly and bluntly. I will say that those very few instances (I can literally count them on one hand) were the trigger for a few boys (they were all boys) who were comparable to animals to turn into nice kids whose own parents couldn’t believe the degree of self-control, respect and motivation they demonstrated at my school thereafter.

The tricky thing is that this has to be done by someone who really doesn’t want to do it.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
. It works. [/quote]

FOR YOU. I think you should add that. That won’t work for every latch key kid whose mother’s income is based on food stamps and getting paid in hotel rooms with crack residue on the table.

I would advise people who share the same opinion as you to spend a good week in an inner city school in a very poor income neighborhood.

get back to me.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yeah, but parents aren’t taking that responsibility. I have seen with my own eyes parents watch their kid slap another kid hard as hell and they say NOTHING. I have seen a kid spit on an adult and the parent said NOTHING. There are too many kids today raised by parents who do not take the time to raise their kids or reprimand them at all…then they turn around and accuse the schools of hurting their kid when that school is forced to deal with hundreds of kids like this while teaching them all algebra.[/quote]

Exactly, however, just because the parents aren’t doing their job doesn’t mean that the school has to pick up the slack or play parent. As I said, force the issue back on the parents. If your kid throw a brick through someones window and breaks it and the parents ignore it, what happens? You will be forced legally to deal with it. They can do that with children and education also.

I see the type of children that you speak of often. If my child’s education was suffering as a result of a student like that, I would be in the Principal’s office, stat, wanting to know what the heck was going on and why.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yeah, but parents aren’t taking that responsibility. I have seen with my own eyes parents watch their kid slap another kid hard as hell and they say NOTHING. I have seen a kid spit on an adult and the parent said NOTHING. There are too many kids today raised by parents who do not take the time to raise their kids or reprimand them at all…then they turn around and accuse the schools of hurting their kid when that school is forced to deal with hundreds of kids like this while teaching them all algebra.[/quote]

Exactly, however, just because the parents aren’t doing their job doesn’t mean that the school has to pick up the slack or play parent. As I said, force the issue back on the parents. If your kid throw a brick through someones window and breaks it and the parents ignore it, what happens? You will be forced legally to deal with it. They can do that with children and education also.

I see the type of children that you speak of often. If my child’s education was suffering as a result of a student like that, I would be in the Principal’s office, stat, wanting to know what the heck was going on and why.[/quote]

What do you suggest? Sending the problem child home? He won’t have anyone watching him there so he will just end up in your house stealing your tv while YOU are at work.

What if there are 86 kids like this in one class? The whole class gets sent home?

My parents switched from spanking to writing lines when I was young…bring back the spanking! Any idea how long it takes to write “I will not steal chocolate from my younger sisters easter basket” 5000x times! Thought I was clever asking if I could type it out for practice since I had to take a computer typing class in school haha…

But working as a janitor in a few NYC public schools I never got the point of a time out when the kids didn’t want to be in class to begin with.

I don’t have a problem with corporal punishment in the home (within reason of course). But I wouldn’t be alright with a grown man spanking my 15-year-old daughter. I wouldn’t be alright with a grown man touching my 15-year-old daughter’s ass in any way (didn’t see if he used a paddle, but it doesn’t much matter to me), unless it was a doctor performing some kind of necessary procedure.

Not to mention: 15 is far too old for this shit. It sends the message that you can make a serious mistake, at an age which is very quickly approaching adulthood, and suffer the same kind of punishment administered to a 6-year-old who stole some cookies from the cookie jar. When you fuck up in the real world you suffer real consequences. Treating teens like toddlers doesn’t help prepare them for the real life that they are about to be rocketed into.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Being the mother to a 16 y/o boy with a girl on the way any day now, I would go ballistic if school administration laid their hands on either one of them. Discipline and behavior problems are my issue to deal with as a parent. If my child has created that much of an issue at school, call me and I will pick them up and deal with it, my way.

Not that any child is perfect or behaves completely all of the time, but when I go to parent/teacher interviews, every single one of them tells me and my husband that my boy is quiet, well-mannered, well liked and very pleasant to have in class. He also does very well in school and is an athlete with lots of friends. He was taught, at home, how to be that way.

The teachers and administration are employed to teach children how to read/write/etc, not to lay hands or any other implements for that matter. I’m not anti-spanking at all but it is my decision.[/quote]

As I’ve said, I don’t support spanking in schools, but don’t you think teachers and administrators need some method of managing behavioural issues that arise throughout the day?
Especially with kids whose parent’s may not be as engaged as you are or who are unable to come down to the school to deal with every transgression?

We put our teachers in a position of authority, as we do any adult to whom we entrust the custody of our children. Authority is not authority if it doesn’t have “teeth”.[/quote]

I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.

Sometimes the school blows things out of proportion and calls home about ridiculous things. I even had that happen once when my son came to school with a pen that had an LED light in it. I simply asked them “Did you really call me at work because of this?” It did not happen again. There are other more serious issues that do need some kind of intervening though. As I mentioned earlier, detention, suspensions, etc for more serious offenses.

If the parents don’t have time to deal with it, what makes them think the school does? You need to look out for the majority of the students that do behave and are there to learn. If you’ve been given several chances and you keep being disruptive and causing various altercations, find another school to take you.

I see what you mean by having “teeth”. I have spanked my son once. Every other time that I needed to assert my authority, I found other ways to do it. My husband and I do have much authority over the house and we are able to do it through establishing rules, explaining expectations and having consequences for inappropriate actions. It works. [/quote]

I agree that people should grasp the scope of the commitment that parenting entails before having children (at least to the extent that they’re able to). I think parents should do a lot of things that they don’t always do. That said, schools like society at large need some method of maintaining order amongst those who for whatever reason, do not necessarily default to behaving in an orderly or appropriate fashion. Part of the mandate for school staff, IMO is to maintain and, if necessary enforce that order. I’m not saying that it’s an easy job, but it’s part of the deal for anybody who has care of kids on an extended and regular basis.

By “teeth”, I was actually referring to the the ability to directly impose some form of unpleasant consequence in the face of unacceptable conduct. I wasn’t really meaning corporal punishment as such. I’m not sure what the answer is, possibly along the lines of some kind of difficult, unpleasant and possibly mildly humiliating (in the mind of the average teenager) labour and/or the withholding of desirable privileges in the school setting. What I did not mean was saying “wait until mom/dad gets here.” Mom/Dad may not be inclined to impose any consequences at all, or at least not any that stick. Then what? Expel the kid? Put him/her in an “alternative” school? School staff need the ability to maintain some semblance of order regardless of divergent temperaments and the varying degrees of effective parenting that their charges may be receiving. Part of “education” in my opinion, is learning to preferably respect but at least to comply with the rules of a given institution. I believe that this is as a valuable life skill as algebra. IMO we need to give our teachers the necessary tools to teach this lesson while maintaining a functioning classroom environment for the children who do choose to operate within the rules.

FTR I think that the only place for force in a school (or home) setting is in the face of actual physical aggression or the threat thereof or possibly extreme defiance/non-compliance and then only in so much as it is necessary to resolve the situation. Our judicial system does not allow use of force as a punitive measure, neither should our school system. I may be wrong about this but it is my belief at this time.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
. It works. [/quote]

FOR YOU. I think you should add that. That won’t work for every latch key kid whose mother’s income is based on food stamps and getting paid in hotel rooms with crack residue on the table.

I would advise people who share the same opinion as you to spend a good week in an inner city school in a very poor income neighborhood.

get back to me.[/quote]

Yes but not because I have some kind of super powers or mind jedi tricks. It works because you follow up with consequences that mean something to the child.

I see what you mean about different socioeconomic back grounds but you don’t know mine so you shouldn’t assume that you do. The children that you speak of, their problems originated at home and the school cannot fix that nor should they be expected to.

To be continued in a little while.

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I don’t have a problem with corporal punishment in the home (within reason of course). But I wouldn’t be alright with a grown man spanking my 15-year-old daughter. I wouldn’t be alright with a grown man touching my 15-year-old daughter’s ass in any way (didn’t see if he used a paddle, but it doesn’t much matter to me), unless it was a doctor performing some kind of necessary procedure.

Not to mention: 15 is far too old for this shit. It sends the message that you can make a serious mistake, at an age which is very quickly approaching adulthood, and suffer the same kind of punishment administered to a 6-year-old who stole some cookies from the cookie jar. When you fuck up in the real world you suffer real consequences. Treating teens like toddlers doesn’t help prepare them for the real life that they are about to be rocketed into.[/quote]

If it hurts…like, if it hurts like it’s supposed to hurt, 15 is most certainly NOT too old. But then, if it hurts like it’s supposed to hurt, 15 year old girls, or boys. won’t be opting for it.

That’s supposed to be the point.

Look to Singapore as a successful model of the principle applied.

I do think that most spankings are wasted on anyone over the age of six. That said, I’m not so naive to believe that sometimes the standard tools that most educators are allowed are always sufficient. Sometimes a bit of violence is exactly what a certain kind of kid understands, respects, even.

It’s not for always, though. It’s just one more tool in the toolbox.

*edited for typos

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I don’t have a problem with corporal punishment in the home (within reason of course). But I wouldn’t be alright with a grown man spanking my 15-year-old daughter. I wouldn’t be alright with a grown man touching my 15-year-old daughter’s ass in any way (didn’t see if he used a paddle, but it doesn’t much matter to me), unless it was a doctor performing some kind of necessary procedure.

Not to mention: 15 is far too old for this shit. It sends the message that you can make a serious mistake, at an age which is very quickly approaching adulthood, and suffer the same kind of punishment administered to a 6-year-old who stole some cookies from the cookie jar. When you fuck up in the real world you suffer real consequences. Treating teens like toddlers doesn’t help prepare them for the real life that they are about to be rocketed into.[/quote]

If it hurts…like, if it hurts like it’s supposed to hurt, 15 is most certainly NOT too old. But then, if it hurts like it’s supposed to hurt, 15 year old girls, or boys. won’t be opting for it.

That’s supposed to be the point.

Look to Singapore as a successful model of the principle applied.

I do think that most spankings are wasted on anyone over the age of six. That said, I’m not so naive to believe that sometimes the standard tools that most educators are allowed are always sufficient. Sometimes a bit of violence is exactly what a certain kind of kid understands, respects, even.

It’s not for always, though. It’s just one more tool in the toolbox.

*edited for typos[/quote]

As I understand it, you work in the field Cortes, so I won’t argue that it doesn’t have utility. I do still believe that by fifteen years old kids should be getting punished in a more adult manner. If you cheat on a test in high school, you get spanked. If you cheat on your taxes the year after you graduate…not that simple.

But that aside, what about the part about a grown man paddling your (attractive) daughter’s asscheeks? Don’t you think think we could figure out a less sexualized form of punishment?

In case anyone doesn’t think this sexualized, consider this: a grown man slams you on the wrist or the upper back with a hard piece of wood. Another grown man bends you over and spanks you. Assuming that the amount of pain is exactly equal, which scenario seems less palatable to you on snap judgement?

My guess for most t-men is scenario B. And there’s a visceral reason for that.

My sister used to go to a church run high school and stated her freshman year there was a male teacher that would spank for bad behavior. She said it became obvious after several of these punishments that he was particularly picking on attractive girls and of course they wore little skirt uniforms.

Needles to say she got turned off to religion all because of one dude that was getting off on hand to buttock pleasure.

I vote for spanking but by same sex or under supervision and with a wood paddle drilled with holes for greater velocity.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
As a teacher/administrator/principal myself, I will say that I have used physical force in an extremely limited amount of situations that I judged necessary at that moment in time. Not paddling, and non-injurious, but my point was made quickly and bluntly. I will say that those very few instances (I can literally count them on one hand) were the trigger for a few boys (they were all boys) who were comparable to animals to turn into nice kids whose own parents couldn’t believe the degree of self-control, respect and motivation they demonstrated at my school thereafter.

The tricky thing is that this has to be done by someone who really doesn’t want to do it. [/quote]

Do you mean that you had physically restrain a student or along those lines? I’m not opposed to that if it’s absolutely necessary to avoid someone say potentially being hurt or one that is out of control atm. As a form of punishment I don’t like it but to control a potentially volatile situation, sometimes this needs to be.

I particularly am fond of your last sentence. This has always been a belief of mine - never give the person the job that wants it too much.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yeah, but parents aren’t taking that responsibility. I have seen with my own eyes parents watch their kid slap another kid hard as hell and they say NOTHING. I have seen a kid spit on an adult and the parent said NOTHING. There are too many kids today raised by parents who do not take the time to raise their kids or reprimand them at all…then they turn around and accuse the schools of hurting their kid when that school is forced to deal with hundreds of kids like this while teaching them all algebra.[/quote]

Exactly, however, just because the parents aren’t doing their job doesn’t mean that the school has to pick up the slack or play parent. As I said, force the issue back on the parents. If your kid throw a brick through someones window and breaks it and the parents ignore it, what happens? You will be forced legally to deal with it. They can do that with children and education also.

I see the type of children that you speak of often. If my child’s education was suffering as a result of a student like that, I would be in the Principal’s office, stat, wanting to know what the heck was going on and why.[/quote]

What do you suggest? Sending the problem child home? He won’t have anyone watching him there so he will just end up in your house stealing your tv while YOU are at work.

What if there are 86 kids like this in one class? The whole class gets sent home?[/quote]

If they have done something deserving of being sent home, yes. If that is the case then leaving that child unsupervised would be silly, now, wouldn’t it?

If there is a class of 86 somewhere that are all horrendously behaved then perhaps everyone should reconsider their part in it.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Being the mother to a 16 y/o boy with a girl on the way any day now, I would go ballistic if school administration laid their hands on either one of them. Discipline and behavior problems are my issue to deal with as a parent. If my child has created that much of an issue at school, call me and I will pick them up and deal with it, my way.

Not that any child is perfect or behaves completely all of the time, but when I go to parent/teacher interviews, every single one of them tells me and my husband that my boy is quiet, well-mannered, well liked and very pleasant to have in class. He also does very well in school and is an athlete with lots of friends. He was taught, at home, how to be that way.

The teachers and administration are employed to teach children how to read/write/etc, not to lay hands or any other implements for that matter. I’m not anti-spanking at all but it is my decision.[/quote]

As I’ve said, I don’t support spanking in schools, but don’t you think teachers and administrators need some method of managing behavioural issues that arise throughout the day?
Especially with kids whose parent’s may not be as engaged as you are or who are unable to come down to the school to deal with every transgression?

We put our teachers in a position of authority, as we do any adult to whom we entrust the custody of our children. Authority is not authority if it doesn’t have “teeth”.[/quote]

I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.

Sometimes the school blows things out of proportion and calls home about ridiculous things. I even had that happen once when my son came to school with a pen that had an LED light in it. I simply asked them “Did you really call me at work because of this?” It did not happen again. There are other more serious issues that do need some kind of intervening though. As I mentioned earlier, detention, suspensions, etc for more serious offenses.

If the parents don’t have time to deal with it, what makes them think the school does? You need to look out for the majority of the students that do behave and are there to learn. If you’ve been given several chances and you keep being disruptive and causing various altercations, find another school to take you.

I see what you mean by having “teeth”. I have spanked my son once. Every other time that I needed to assert my authority, I found other ways to do it. My husband and I do have much authority over the house and we are able to do it through establishing rules, explaining expectations and having consequences for inappropriate actions. It works. [/quote]

I agree that people should grasp the scope of the commitment that parenting entails before having children (at least to the extent that they’re able to). I think parents should do a lot of things that they don’t always do. That said, schools like society at large need some method of maintaining order amongst those who for whatever reason, do not necessarily default to behaving in an orderly or appropriate fashion. Part of the mandate for school staff, IMO is to maintain and, if necessary enforce that order. I’m not saying that it’s an easy job, but it’s part of the deal for anybody who has care of kids on an extended and regular basis.

By “teeth”, I was actually referring to the the ability to directly impose some form of unpleasant consequence in the face of unacceptable conduct. I wasn’t really meaning corporal punishment as such. I’m not sure what the answer is, possibly along the lines of some kind of difficult, unpleasant and possibly mildly humiliating (in the mind of the average teenager) labour and/or the withholding of desirable privileges in the school setting. What I did not mean was saying “wait until mom/dad gets here.” Mom/Dad may not be inclined to impose any consequences at all, or at least not any that stick. Then what? Expel the kid? Put him/her in an “alternative” school? School staff need the ability to maintain some semblance of order regardless of divergent temperaments and the varying degrees of effective parenting that their charges may be receiving. Part of “education” in my opinion, is learning to preferably respect but at least to comply with the rules of a given institution. I believe that this is as a valuable life skill as algebra. IMO we need to give our teachers the necessary tools to teach this lesson while maintaining a functioning classroom environment for the children who do choose to operate within the rules.

FTR I think that the only place for force in a school (or home) setting is in the face of actual physical aggression or the threat thereof or possibly extreme defiance/non-compliance and then only in so much as it is necessary to resolve the situation. Our judicial system does not allow use of force as a punitive measure, neither should our school system. I may be wrong about this but it is my belief at this time.[/quote]

Okay, I see your point now and am inclined to think that we actually agree with each other more than not. Your last paragraph, I am very much in agreement with. You don’t just go around hitting people to prove a point. There are times when being physical is warranted, but not all that many.

On the other hand, how many kids would think the same thing? “Miss so and so is so hot…man I hear she does all the spanking…OOOO boy I can’t WAIT to get into some trouble!!” Trust me…it’ll happen.

beat that ass with a paddle.

It worked for Dad, it Worked for Me, it worked for America. Pussy America needs to grow up and take a paddle to the ass.

I appreciate the conversation here. I think I understand the mentality of the “pro-spankers” a bit more here, especially after PX’s posts. I agree 100% with what Jackie_Jacked has been saying. Kick the kids out. “the whole class, then?” Yep. Perhaps then we can use/get more charter/appropriate schools. And yes, I did some work in a charter school “in the inner-city” complete with drug deals across the street, blood trails on the floor from the addict who broke in the night before, and some of the most intense discipline I’ve ever witnessed… and it worked.

edit: no physical discipline