[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I don’t want to pay taxes but they are needed to run the government, I may not like how my taxes are spent but I I do use the services and roads they provide.
[/quote]
Why do you need the government to provide these services?
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
It is the truth, freedom is intertwined with property rights, if you do not have property rights you are not free.[/quote]
Saying “It’s the truth” is not an argument.
Nomadic people’s have been totally “free” since the beginning of human existence, without the need for property rights.
The concept of property is the result agriculture and “working” the land. There’s no inherent for for property rights any more than there was/is the inherent needs for agriculture.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
It is the truth, freedom is intertwined with property rights, if you do not have property rights you are not free.[/quote]
Question because I don’t know, how does that affect people who don’t own property? What would that relate to then?
[/quote]
At the basic level, property rights gives you the right to do as you wish with your own body.
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I don’t want to pay taxes but they are needed to run the government, I may not like how my taxes are spent but I I do use the services and roads they provide.
[/quote]
Why do you need the government to provide these services?[/quote]
I don’t know if I would trust a private army or a private sector to negotiate treaties and tariffs.
As for roads, I don’t know the cost of a road.
In San Diego we used to out source our data processing but then found that it was cheaper to create a department that handles the data. That saves my tax money.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
It is the truth, freedom is intertwined with property rights, if you do not have property rights you are not free.[/quote]
Question because I don’t know, how does that affect people who don’t own property? What would that relate to then?
[/quote]
At the basic level, property rights gives you the right to do as you wish with your own body.[/quote]
Would you explain that please?
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
It is the truth, freedom is intertwined with property rights, if you do not have property rights you are not free.[/quote]
Question because I don’t know, how does that affect people who don’t own property? What would that relate to then?
[/quote]
At the basic level, property rights gives you the right to do as you wish with your own body.[/quote]
Would you explain that please?
[/quote]
Self ownership is a property right.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
It is the truth, freedom is intertwined with property rights, if you do not have property rights you are not free.[/quote]
Question because I don’t know, how does that affect people who don’t own property? What would that relate to then?
EDIT: So I suppose that would apply to renting? But then don’t you have to go by what is allowed by the Landlord? Something like the Government?
How do property rights relate to religion and speech?
[/quote]
Your body is your property, as long as it is not physically/financially harming anyone elses(oppressing their property rights) it is fine. You are free to practice your religion. And a landlord provides a service that I willingly participate in. If I do not like his terms I go somewhere else. The thing with government is, religious nutjobs or socialists/fascists end up telling me what to do and I have no choice in the matter, its not as if I can go somewhere else because states rights have been all but erased.
Everyone owns their body, hence everyone owns property.
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
It is the truth, freedom is intertwined with property rights, if you do not have property rights you are not free.[/quote]
Saying “It’s the truth” is not an argument.
Nomadic people’s have been totally “free” since the beginning of human existence, without the need for property rights.
The concept of property is the result agriculture and “working” the land. There’s no inherent for for property rights any more than there was/is the inherent needs for agriculture.[/quote]
Nomadic people have had property rights since the beginning. No one is over their property but them.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
It is the truth, freedom is intertwined with property rights, if you do not have property rights you are not free.[/quote]
Question because I don’t know, how does that affect people who don’t own property? What would that relate to then?
[/quote]
At the basic level, property rights gives you the right to do as you wish with your own body.[/quote]
Would you explain that please?
[/quote]
Self ownership is a property right.[/quote]
I am not trying to be repetitive, really, and perhaps LFT is right and I should stick with boob pics, but explain to me how that relates to my person.
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
It is the truth, freedom is intertwined with property rights, if you do not have property rights you are not free.[/quote]
Question because I don’t know, how does that affect people who don’t own property? What would that relate to then?
EDIT: So I suppose that would apply to renting? But then don’t you have to go by what is allowed by the Landlord? Something like the Government?
How do property rights relate to religion and speech?
[/quote]
Your body is your property, as long as it is not physically/financially harming anyone elses(oppressing their property rights) it is fine. You are free to practice your religion. And a landlord provides a service that I willingly participate in. If I do not like his terms I go somewhere else. The thing with government is, religious nutjobs or socialists/fascists end up telling me what to do and I have no choice in the matter, its not as if I can go somewhere else because states rights have been all but erased.
Everyone owns their body, hence everyone owns property.[/quote]
That seems really expansive to me. Like those people who do those thread scenarios about how silk workers in China 5000years ago are owed money for a typewriter patent.
You could leave the country if the policies don’t agree with you or you could participate in voting to try and get people in power that will hold to policies you agree with.
What would be your solution? I don’t like the idea of no government because that just seems like a return to a feudal system.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I don’t know if I would trust a private army or a private sector to negotiate treaties and tariffs.
As for roads, I don’t know the cost of a road.
In San Diego we used to out source our data processing but then found that it was cheaper to create a department that handles the data. That saves my tax money.
[/quote]
Why would you not trust a private army? You must remember that a private army would be made up of many different companies. And why do we need treaties and tariffs, free people can interact with who they choose.
Private roads run better, and if you take the tax off gas would be cheaper for the vast majority of people.
Something tells me San Diego didn’t explore all options/had a lot of shady deals going on. Because private beats public every time.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
It is the truth, freedom is intertwined with property rights, if you do not have property rights you are not free.[/quote]
Question because I don’t know, how does that affect people who don’t own property? What would that relate to then?
EDIT: So I suppose that would apply to renting? But then don’t you have to go by what is allowed by the Landlord? Something like the Government?
How do property rights relate to religion and speech?
[/quote]
Your body is your property, as long as it is not physically/financially harming anyone elses(oppressing their property rights) it is fine. You are free to practice your religion. And a landlord provides a service that I willingly participate in. If I do not like his terms I go somewhere else. The thing with government is, religious nutjobs or socialists/fascists end up telling me what to do and I have no choice in the matter, its not as if I can go somewhere else because states rights have been all but erased.
Everyone owns their body, hence everyone owns property.[/quote]
That seems really expansive to me. Like those people who do those thread scenarios about how silk workers in China 5000years ago are owed money for a typewriter patent.
You could leave the country if the policies don’t agree with you or you could participate in voting to try and get people in power that will hold to policies you agree with.
What would be your solution? I don’t like the idea of no government because that just seems like a return to a feudal system.
[/quote]
I believe a government is needed to secure property rights. A very very very weak central government and a moderate state government.
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I don’t know if I would trust a private army or a private sector to negotiate treaties and tariffs.
As for roads, I don’t know the cost of a road.
In San Diego we used to out source our data processing but then found that it was cheaper to create a department that handles the data. That saves my tax money.
[/quote]
Why would you not trust a private army? You must remember that a private army would be made up of many different companies. And why do we need treaties and tariffs, free people can interact with who they choose.
Private roads run better, and if you take the tax off gas would be cheaper for the vast majority of people.
Something tells me San Diego didn’t explore all options/had a lot of shady deals going on. Because private beats public every time.[/quote]
Really? How did the Enron thing workout?
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The entire realm of humanity is centered around property rights, first and foremost.[/quote]
Do you believe this to be a historical truth (what I’d call a real or actual truth), or is it a thought experiment/philosophical “truth”, like the “state of nature” for Hobbs?[/quote]
Everything we do requires:
our life;
a place to do those things.
Both of these are the subject of property rights. Notice I am not trying to say what it is a person should or should not do; I am merely suggesting what is required for a man to exist.
In this respect the notion of property rights are what I would call an absolute truth. In fact, historically speaking, a large portion of discontent in humanity comes precisely because of how these rights were perceived to exist for certain individuals and not a question of whether they existed or not.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Well then if I manage to post anything remotely better it will be a nice surprise for you.
[/quote]
I’ll hold my breath until that moment.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I don’t know if I would trust a private army or a private sector to negotiate treaties and tariffs.
As for roads, I don’t know the cost of a road.
In San Diego we used to out source our data processing but then found that it was cheaper to create a department that handles the data. That saves my tax money.
[/quote]
Why would you not trust a private army? You must remember that a private army would be made up of many different companies. And why do we need treaties and tariffs, free people can interact with who they choose.
Private roads run better, and if you take the tax off gas would be cheaper for the vast majority of people.
Something tells me San Diego didn’t explore all options/had a lot of shady deals going on. Because private beats public every time.[/quote]
Really? How did the Enron thing workout?
[/quote]
You are not suggesting that Enron was a product of a Laissez faire market are you? Enron went away, we all moved on and a better company will emerge. The market place weeds out the inefficient and replaces them with much more efficient industries, hence making all our lives better.
Government keeps the inefficient around by punishing the efficient, hence hurting everyone. You saw this with the TARP bailouts.
OG, forget for a moment the idea of anarchy. I am not even bringing that idea into this discussion.
Let’s pretend for one minute that governments actually were INSTITUTED AMONG MEN TO PROTECT LIFE, LIBERTY, and PROPERTY.
How does a government protect property rights while simultaneously infringing upon them?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Well then if I manage to post anything remotely better it will be a nice surprise for you.
[/quote]
I’ll hold my breath until that moment.[/quote]
Oh please do!
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I don’t know if I would trust a private army or a private sector to negotiate treaties and tariffs.
As for roads, I don’t know the cost of a road.
In San Diego we used to out source our data processing but then found that it was cheaper to create a department that handles the data. That saves my tax money.
[/quote]
Why would you not trust a private army? You must remember that a private army would be made up of many different companies. And why do we need treaties and tariffs, free people can interact with who they choose.
Private roads run better, and if you take the tax off gas would be cheaper for the vast majority of people.
Something tells me San Diego didn’t explore all options/had a lot of shady deals going on. Because private beats public every time.[/quote]
Really? How did the Enron thing workout?
[/quote]
You are not suggesting that Enron was a product of a Laissez faire market are you? Enron went away, we all moved on and a better company will emerge. The market place weeds out the inefficient and replaces them with much more efficient industries, hence making all our lives better.
Government keeps the inefficient around by punishing the efficient, hence hurting everyone. You saw this with the TARP bailouts.[/quote]
I actually hadn’t looked at it that way. I’ll have to mull it over for a bit.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
OG, forget for a moment the idea of anarchy. I am not even bringing that idea into this discussion.
Let’s pretend for one minute that governments actually were INSTITUTED AMONG MEN TO PROTECT LIFE, LIBERTY, and PROPERTY.
How does a government protect property rights while simultaneously infringing upon them?[/quote]
To explain why I dismiss a lot of what you post is because you seem to bash away at what things shouldn’t be and post about this hypothetical what should be, but I don’t see you suggesting a workable solution for the current situation.
If you have suggested workable solutions then I have missed them.
Even your question now is more of a rage against the machine then how do we solve the problem of anchor babies.
Currently the law provides that any child born in the US is an automatic citizen. That family may be entitled to benefits which are provided with my taxes.
I don’t want my taxes spent that way but currently that is the reality in which I live.
So I can see your question as how it relates to my upset. How can a government that is to represent me allowed to use my taxes to support anchor babies when that is not my wish?
Is that along the lines of your question?