What is the purpose of this program?
Loads stay the same - There is no progression?
[quote]testup wrote:
Once again, reference Chad W., an accepted expert on these very forums. (100 pushups/50 chins six
[/quote]
Many people on this site who have built an impressive physique do not believe this, I know I sure as hell don’t.
Testup,
Sorry I didn’t mean to come across as harsh.
I would be interested to hear your feedback after trying this program for 3 months… I think it would make for an entertaining read, but I don’t expect it would work. But what the hell… prove me wrong. I can take it. 
As for constructive feedback:
-Overreaching, then letting a body part rest probably works well, but you’re talking about letting the muscle completely decondition. In my opinion something more like beating the hell out of the muscle for 5-10 days consecutively, then resting it for another 5-10 days, could be very productive. I’ve never tried this approach, but several authors here have suggested it.
Testup, it would seem you’re unaware that Mentzer did not achieve his physique by the methods he advocated.
Therefore, citing his accomplishments in building a physique as a basis to support his “work” is, as he would put it (since you like him) not logical.
The question is, what have his methods done for anybody – which can include himself – and the answer is, Much less than other methods.
(Post hasn’t appeared, so can’t edit)
I withdraw the above post: on re-reading the original post, this is undoubtedly a trolling effort.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Well, in my last communication with Mike Mentzer he threatened to have me kneecapped, and I have other reasons besides that to consider him to have been mentally unstable; and so far as spending time with his “work,” I’m afraid it was long since used to line my birdcages.
If you want a serious answer on your proposed program: abandon it completely and adopt something else. Pretty much ANYTHING else would be an improvement.[/quote]
Kneecapped? Really? What the hell were you two talking about that offended him?
I spoke with him on the phone once, and yes, the dude was nuts. If you even asked for clarification on a point he made he’d absolutely lose his mind and think you must be working for a protein supplement company who is trying to debunk HIT in an effort to sell more protein powders.
As to the effectiveness of his training methods… it was limited to the fantasy trainees that were under his personal tutelage (they would of course gain 30lbs of muscle every 2 weeks). Every one else seemed to quickly regress from his programs, which is exactly what everyone here would expect from training a body part once every 20-30 days.
Mentzer (and more significantly Arthur Jones) did help break people out of Arnold’s 2-4 hour workouts 6 days a week, so I gotta at least give him credit for that.
[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Well, in my last communication with Mike Mentzer he threatened to have me kneecapped, and I have other reasons besides that to consider him to have been mentally unstable; and so far as spending time with his “work,” I’m afraid it was long since used to line my birdcages.
If you want a serious answer on your proposed program: abandon it completely and adopt something else. Pretty much ANYTHING else would be an improvement.
Kneecapped? Really? What the hell were you two talking about that offended him?[/quote]
I hadn’t been talking to him or writing to him, but he had read something I had written on the old misc.fitness.weights newsgroup that was critical of his methods. I don’t recall what I’d written, but I take it that it was of a ridiculing nature, and it must have made mention of his practice of drinking his urine, as he made a remark in the threatening e-mail supporting the practice and saying I didn’t know what I was talking about with regard to its benefits.
It was a rather rambling e-mail but also pretty specific: he had found out where I lived, and advised that Arthur Jones back in the day had had people kneecapped, and he knew the same people and was in VERY closely with them, and as I knew this was in the same immediate area (not far from DeLand) and so this would be no trouble for him, so I had better not say anything ever again.
Of course I did anyway 
I’m pretty sure I advised him that he had committed a federal crime by sending the threat, which perhaps contributed towards never hearing from him again.
(By the way, I know of no evidence that Arthur Jones had people kneecapped. That he personally threatened people at gunpoint, there is no doubt, but kneecapped… that seems unsupported.)
why putting a lot of volume to the legs in just one week and after let the legs sleep for 8 weeks??
why not mix your 3 phases in the same week.
It’s not with this style of program that you will grow…
if you want to see your abs and your bones … well go ahead with this kind of training.
I get up one day and you say, mmmmm I have a flash of what is a super program???
From the second response hes quite clearly trying to wind you all up
I just read the Mentzer talk, just thought Id add my 2c, I think he went very OTT with his methods in the end, but I think thats exactly what needed to be done because in the long run, it has benefited the sport. Dorian Yates was inspired by Mentzer with his training, he trained far less than other bodybuilders at the time but still had an immense physique.
When guys like Arnold were training 4 hours a day in the gym, it was inconceivable that those physiques could be built with 4 hours a week, but thanks to Mentzer going against the flow, he convinced some people to approach training differently.
Its quite a sad story really, at the end of his life he’d really lost it, its a pity because he could have been remembered as a legend, but he just took it all too far
Testup, i’ll give you my opinions on what you’ve posted since none of the other trolls are willing to.
Im gonna come right out and say, its a pretty crappy program. But i’ll give you my reasoning.
1)You cant have high voluem AND high frequency, it just doesn’t work. Arguably what you put isn’t high volume, so its possible.
2)You have NO progressive overload as I see it. Day 1 has the same exact volume/workload as day 6. This could easily be changed though. You could use something like a 10RM and do as many sets as it takes to get your 100 rep target. And then when possible, complete the 100 reps in less sets/time. This would be progression by density.
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You have 3 weeks of JUST lower body, followed by 3 weeks of JUST upper body. This is not necessary, and would be highly inneficient.
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ABSOLUTELY no intensity. You would lose a ton of strength on this program, and a result, likely lose muscle.
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Exercise selection is debatable, but no squats and deadlifts usually pretty much makes a program useless.
Those are my opinions, and sure, it could work, but I doubt it would work unless you had a ton of strength, drugs, and amazing genetics.
Something like EDT or GVT might be a better option, but strength is always going to be a big factor. Many times, I feel volume without the pursuit of strength is just a good way to spin your wheels in the gym.
I like the idea of trying to experiment and come up with something new. Someone has got to do it. And in the process you’ll likely figure out what works for you. If you are interested, give it a try. Its not that crazy, and if you are able to make some changes as you go, you might benefit in some way from it.
If I were going to do it myself it would look like this:
Phase I: 3 weeks (6 days per week, alternate upper/lower)
- Main lift (different each day, but something like bench, squat, dead, row, lunge, etc.)
hit that main lift for 5x5. - Then do 2-3 exercises either upper or lower depending on the day. Do it very similar to how you set it up, but with a SPECIFIC weight, and however many sets it takes to hit your target reps. If it takes you 8 sets to get 50 reps teh first workout, the next time you repeat it, try to do it in 7 sets.
Phase II: 3 weeks (5 days per week, upper/lower)
Almost the same thing exactly, but change the main lifts to 4x4
Same thing for your other lifts, but maybe do someting like pick a weight, do as many reps as possible in 5 sets. When you are able to hit a certain rep mark in the five sets (something like 60 reps) then you increase the weight the next time. Less volume would be the goal here, but the overall workload weightxreps should be higher.
Phase III: 3 weeks (4 days per week, upper/lower)
Very similar, but now go to 3x3 on the main lifts.
Other lifts, just do 3 sets of max reps with a certain weight. When you are able to hit a certain rep mark (about 40) increase the weight. The goal here is even less volume and less total sets and less total workload than the previos phase.
After this, I’d have a 3-5 week phase, where I just focused on raising my main lifts. Something like 5x5 or starting strength, and really try cut back on the volume but get those lifts up. Then the next time you repeat the entire program you’ll be much stronger, and it will be much tougher.
The options are endless. Anything that will make you stronger, will potentially make you bigger.
@ dankid
Thanks man. I really appreciate the response. I know the program I came up with was potentially crap, but I wanted to start with something unbalanced and extreme so that I could get the kind of feedback you’re offering.
GVT was the only way I trained after I came off a mispent Mentzer style HIT training cycle. HIT didn’t do me a huge amount of good, although it did make me big. I got up to around 240lbs., but it wasn’t very clean weight.
I had far too much fat on me, so I switched to a GVT program after awhile and dieted really hard to get myself down to 190lbs. Of course, I lost a lot of muscle doing that, so that’s how I’ve gotten to the point I’m at right now. I know that high volume training can really keep my weight under control, but my mass sufferes.
I suppose I’m daydreaming a little, but I would love to find a way to get the benifits of volume training AND heavy training. Maybe it really is impossible, but I hoped someone with more experience than me might have some insight.
Thanks again for trying to see what I’m thinking about and answering carefully.
we just loose our time answer to him.
What is your current height, weight, BF%, and age?
Also what are your maxes on bench, squat, and deadlift.
I like the idea of experimental programs. The key is to not get too crazy with them, and the crazier they are the less often they should be used and for less time. Start with something simple that works, like 5x5, do it for a couple of weeks, and then start modifying.
Start small at first, maybe add some cardio, or some assistance work, or change it to 4x8 or 6x6. Then keep modifying if you need to.
If you want to try something crazy, like you’ve posted, maybe run it for 4 weeks, and then see what happens. Dont come back to it for 3 months. Remember, the crazier it is, the less you should do it, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it.
@ dankid
My height is 6’3", I’m 190lbs, I’m 27 years old, and I’m stuck at 18% BF. Because of joint problems in my knees and shoulder problems, my squat and bench are not good. (That’s why I put chest presses and leg presses in the original program I typed up. I’ve been trying to work around hurting myself.)
I used to do incline presses at 225lbs for reps, but I wasn’t very proud of it. I pretty much entirely replaced the squat with 540lbs leg presses for reps. My best deadlift was 350lbs for reps.
Some of these numbers have gone down, I’m sure. It has been awhile since I tested my 1RM, as I’ve just been cutting and cutting and cutting for almost a year. (Which makes it all the more sad that I can’t seem to get below 18% BF.)
I like the idea of experimental programs too, but I think my main motivation is how resistant my body seems to be to conventional training and diet. I need a good program to bust me out of this stall I’m in and get my bodyfat down while helping me get my weight up.
[quote]testup wrote:
@ dankid
My height is 6’3", I’m 190lbs, I’m 27 years old, and I’m stuck at 18% BF. Because of joint problems in my knees and shoulder problems, my squat and bench are not good. (That’s why I put chest presses and leg presses in the original program I typed up.
I’ve been trying to work around hurting myself.) I used to do incline presses at 225lbs for reps, but I wasn’t very proud of it. I pretty much entirely replaced the squat with 540lbs leg presses for reps. My best deadlift was 350lbs for reps.
Some of these numbers have gone down, I’m sure. It has been awhile since I tested my 1RM, as I’ve just been cutting and cutting and cutting for almost a year. (Which makes it all the more sad that I can’t seem to get below 18% BF.)
I like the idea of experimental programs too, but I think my main motivation is how resistant my body seems to be to conventional training and diet. I need a good program to bust me out of this stall I’m in and get my bodyfat down while helping me get my weight up.[/quote]
I will be serious for a minute here. You are limiting your progress severely if you constantly work with programs that look like this. Put down the Waterbury books and do what the big and strong guys do, P.S CHAD IS NOT ONE OF THESE. At 6’3 you have potential for a LOT more mass than just 190 pounds.
I reached 285 pounds by using very heavy weights and working just as hard in the kitchen. Your body is not resistant to growing at this point, it’s just you aren’t providing it with the simple stimuli it needs to grow.
I can’t help but feel sorry for people in your position, at 27, you are probably very set in your ways and will refuse to change no matter how many of us tell you your way of thinking is way off the mark.
Bro, you are a beginner. You need a good, solid beginner program, and then you need to bust your ass on it for a while.
You are making the same mistake that almost every beginner makes… bouncing around different training systems, looking for the magic one that will put 20lbs of muscle on you in a month. You will save yourself a lot of time and energy if you can believe me here… IT DOESN’T EXIST!
All that really matters is that you work consistently hard and eat clean. You don’t even have to squat and bench press. They are good exercises, but don’t let that stop you. If you would like something simple to bust your ass on, let us know and I’m sure you’ll have lots of responses.
@ waylanderxx and Professor Chaos:
Everyone seems to have really gotten the wrong idea about me. I am open to change. If I didn’t want to change, I wouldn’t have posted here. I know a lot of you are more experienced and a hell of a lot bigger than me.
And yes, I want help. I suppose I just got defensive because 1) I have to admit, I like Chad Waterbury’s articles. and 2) I didn’t expect to get attacked so vehemently for posting, even if it was a silly post.
Professor Chaos, I appreciate that you are convinced that I’m a beginner, and that’s cool. However, I have been in bodybuilding for a long time. My father was a bodybuilder in the 70s, and I didn’t get up to 240lbs around a year ago by being a straight beginner.
It isn’t that I don’t know how to stick with a solid program, it’s just that I have a hell of a time with putting of fat and it makes most standard programs unusually difficult.
I just don’t seem to be able to work heavy without getting really fat at the same time, and I know most people would tell me that I should just clean up my diet, but my bodyfat seems stubborn like I’ve never seen in anyone I’ve ever trained with.
Even though I’d eat as clean as any of my training partners, I just wouldn’t get the results they would. If anyone knows an eating plan for people with really stubborn bodyfat that has worked consistantly, plese, let me know.
[quote]testup wrote:
@ dankid
My height is 6’3", I’m 190lbs, I’m 27 years old, and I’m stuck at 18% BF. Because of joint problems in my knees and shoulder problems, my squat and bench are not good. (That’s why I put chest presses and leg presses in the original program I typed up. I’ve been trying to work around hurting myself.)
I used to do incline presses at 225lbs for reps, but I wasn’t very proud of it. I pretty much entirely replaced the squat with 540lbs leg presses for reps. My best deadlift was 350lbs for reps.
Some of these numbers have gone down, I’m sure. It has been awhile since I tested my 1RM, as I’ve just been cutting and cutting and cutting for almost a year. (Which makes it all the more sad that I can’t seem to get below 18% BF.)
I like the idea of experimental programs too, but I think my main motivation is how resistant my body seems to be to conventional training and diet. I need a good program to bust me out of this stall I’m in and get my bodyfat down while helping me get my weight up.[/quote]
Ya, at 6’3" 190, you are just plain skinny fat. I was in your position before I bulked up a bit. I was 5’11" 190 @ 17% and was skinny fat. I bulked up to 210-215 and am holding there for a while @ 18% or so.
Just focus on strength, and eat more. Get to 220 or 230 while increasing your lifts, and then do a cut.
You probably aren’t a beginner based on your strength, but if you have joint problems, then technically you are a beginner. But I dont think I can say leg presses are better than squats for someone with knee problems.
Either see a dr. to see if anything can be done, or learn to squat to protect your knees.
I’d go with starting strength, or WS4SB, and just enjoy the process and dont get to tied up in the results you are looking for.
@ dankid
Any suggestions how to protect the knees while squating? My biggest problem is that my knees grind, and sometimes threaten to give out. So, I tend to rely on the leg press to avoid the possibility of falling and doing damage to my spine.
I thought about using the power rack pins to lock the squat bar in the down position and then getting under it (basically starting in the down position of the squat) and then pushing myself up. It might give me a little more control, but I don’t know.