T Nation

12-Week Primo/Test E Cycle Log

This is a cycle log from the previous thread, outlining the cycle. Thread:

To recap (and fill in a bit more):

My first cycle consisted of a really stupid Sustanon/Deca cycle. It was only 5-6 weeks long, and I pyramided up to 1g/week of Sust, and 600mg/week of Deca. From the pyramiding, that should tell you how long ago it was (fall of 99). No AI (what’s that?), no PCT. And it was my ‘pre-fight’ cycle before my second MMA fight. I was around 185-190, and was fighting heavyweight so I wanted to put on some weight. And boy, did I. Weighed in at 209, bloated like a tick and looking like I got flogged on the back by a cactus. Strong as f@*#, with no gas at all. The only reason I can figure I had no issues post-cycle is that the long esters from the sust must have created a sort-of natural taper.

Didn’t touch them again for several years. Tried redicat’s paper stuff, saw a few pounds but nothing to write home about (probably wasn’t taking enough). Did a couple bottles of PH’s I bought at a gym (Double Dragon SOS 500, really liked that stuff - good clean weight without any noticeable sides). Then nothing for a few more years, until mid/late 2013. Did an oral-only cycle of tbol (wasn’t too bad and managed to keep most of the weight I gained) followed by a series of short tren/test/mast cycles (2 weeks on/5 off each time, did this 4 times IIRC). Good weight gain, good strength as well. Each PCT/off period I would lose about half of what I gained, and then gain again on the next one. After the series I ended up about 20 pounds heavier than I started, and kept it for a while.

Did another oral only cycle using tbol and MHN a few months ago. Gained a few pounds, but felt like I was getting fat toward the end. Experienced my first bout of gyno when I jacked up my MHN intake to see what happened. Right nipple area got tender - discontinued and it went away with no lumps.

This will be my first ‘proper’ cycle. I put out the money to get the better quality stuff (still UGL, but really good reviews), so this should be fun. The short cycles were from a certain UGL that has been holding a ‘50% off sale’ for over a year now, and I think their stuff was not real high quality.

The particulars:

38 y/o male
22+ years lifting, using different protocols over time. Work would sometimes interfere over the last 10 or so years, but have been able to be very consistent the last 2. Up until this past winter, when I was forced to take a few weeks off from the gym on two different occasions. Lost some weight, and my training maxes ™ came down considerably.

For this cycle, I am following the Juggernaut 2.0 program minus the deload weeks. Being assisted, and having a rather sedentary job while I am out here, I don’t think I will need them.

Cycle plan:

1 - 12 Test E 125mg E4D (375 first week, following 3 day Prop kickstart)
1 - 12 Primobolan 230mg EOD (first inject was 430) This averages at 790mg/week
TNE/Dbol blend (75/25) as preworkout on lifting days*
Aromasin with each Test injection, especially TNE/Dbol days**
13-14 Test Prop 35mg ED (bridge to PCT) stopping 2-3 days before PCT

PCT:
Nolva 40/40/40/20/20/20
Aromasin as needed, still working out how often/how much to take during PCT

*TNE/Dbol - lifting days only, on a 2 week on/1 week off rotation. Accumulation week of Juggernaut will always be without TNE/Dbol.
**Have taken 25mg each Test E inject day, but I’m going to drop that to 12.5mg just for prevention. Probably won’t see much aromatization from the TRT-dose Test I am using, and the Primo won’t aromatize (and may prevent aromatization from what I’ve read) - still using the aromasin just to be safe. On TNE/DBol days, I will take at least 12.5, or more likely the full 25 just to prevent any bloat.

Using a TRT dose of test just for replacement, so I can see what the primo does.

Diet may be spotty sometimes, since I am shipboard and have no control over the menu. Usually pretty good food, but again, the only control I have is whether or not to eat pie after dinner :slight_smile:

In the process of getting some HCG, I’m planning on just using it the last 3-4 weeks of cycle then let it clear before starting PCT. Problem is I am finding conflicting ideas on dosing for this approach, anywhere from 1000iu once per week up to 5000iu spread out over each week.

The next few posts will be updating my first week of training while on, just to catch up.

EDIT: A. and B. are used to notate supersets.

Catching up from last week:
test prop injections 18, 19, and 20 January at 50, 40, and 35mg each time

Week 1
Juggernaut 2.0
10 Wave - Accumulation week

19 January 2015
Monday
Starting weight - 209

Front Squat - 135 x 10, 185 x 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5;
BBB Deadlift - 190 x 10, 10, 10, 10, 10;
A. Snatch Grip High Pull from Pins - 155 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
B. Reverse Crunch - 14# med ball x 10, 10, 10;
Bulgarian Split Squat - 45 x 10, 10, 10;


Row Intervals - 30sec on/30sec off - 8 rounds


20 January 2015
Tuesday
Started Test E(1ml/250mg) and Primo (2.3 ml/430mg total)
25mg Aromasin

A. Band Pull-Apart - red skinny band - 20, 20; Moto-cross Row - 160 x 5, 5, 170 x 5, 5, 5, 180 x 5, 5, 5, 5, 5;
B. Bench - 135 x 10, 155 x 5, 175 x 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5;
Military Press - 65 x 10, 10, 10, 10, 10;
A. 1-Hand Cable Row - 110 x 10, 10, 10, 10;
B. Incline DBell Press - 50 x 10, 10, 10, 10;


KB Snatch 100 Reps for time - 6:20

21 January 2015
Wednesday
Primo Inject - 230mg

A. Dip - BW x 10, 5, 50 x 6, 8, 8, 8;
B. Screw Curl - 40 x 8, 8, 8, 8;
A. Incline Curl - 35 x 8, 8, 8;
B. 1 Arm Pressdown - 60 x 8, 8, 8;
Hammer Curl - 45 x 8, 40 x 7, 35 x 8;
Hanging Leg Raise - 10, ankle weights (unknown) x 10, 10;


22 January 2015
Thursday

Hurricane Sprints - :30 on/:30 off - 10/11/12mph @ 5 incline - 3 rounds
Heartrate recovery between rounds
Incline Walk - 20:00 - 2.8mph @ 8 incline


23 January 2015
Friday
Inject Primo 230mg (2.3cc) and Test E 125mg (.5 cc)
25mg Aromasin

Snatch Grip High Pull from Hang - 155 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
Deadlift - 185 x 5, 5, 230 x 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5;
BBB Front Squat - 155 x 8, 8, 8, 8, 8;
Glute Bridge - 225 x 8, 8, 8;
Seated Calf raise - 110 x 10, 90 x 10, 10;


24 January 2015
Saturday

A. Pullup - BW x 10, 30 x 5, 5, 35 x 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5;
B. Military Press - 55 x 10, 75 x 5, 95 x 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5;
BBB Bench - 145 x 10, 10, 10, 10, 10;
A. Neutral Grip Pullup - BW x 10, 10, 10; 1 Arm Pulldown - 110 x 10;
B. Lateral Raise - 25 x 10, 10, 10, 10;


100 Rep KB Complex - 3:45 (10 per arm of: swing, snatch, clean, front squat, press)


25 January 2015
Sunday
Inject 230mg Primo

Rest/No Training

Week 2
Juggernaut 2.0
10 Wave - Intensification Week

26 January 2015
Monday
Inject 1cc TNE/DBol (75/25mg)*
Aromasin 25mg

Front Squat - 170 x 5, 190 x 5, 205 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
BBB Deadlift - 190 x 10, 10, 10, 10, 10;
A. Snatch Grip High Pull from Pins - 160 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
B. Reverse Crunch - 14# x 10, 10, 10;
A. Leg Extension - 100 x 20, 20, 20;
B. Seated Calf Raise - 70 x 10, 10, 10;


Row Interval - :30 on/:30 off - 10 rounds

Couldn’t sleep for shit last night, so I felt like I was dragging ass a bit. Dealing with a little bit of home stress right now: the wife decided to move while I was gone - yes, I knew ahead of time, and no, we are not getting divorced. I’ve been asked that several times. We had a house picked out in the area we are moving to, the movers came and packed the house out, she scrubbed her way out of the old house, and got on the road. Got to the new house about 2AM to find water damage, the beginnings of mold and evidence of rats - partially eaten roaches and several rat turds. So now she and the kids and our menagerie are staying with friends while she scrambles to find us another place. At least I’m not on a combat deployment.

So anyway. My TNE/DBol blend was severely crystallized when I got it. I ran one of the vials through hot water last night a couple times, and dissolved some of it, then hit it again this morning before prepping the injection. Most of the crystals seem to have dissolved from what I can tell. I’ll probably do the heat thing again tonight and again in the morning, since I am injecting it again tomorrow. Pain wasn’t as bad as I expected, but I injected on the same side as my previous primo inject, which is still sore after a couple days. So sore, in fact, that I did leg extensions instead of Bulgarian split squats like I had planned. Tried one rep, and couldn’t even get down to parallel it was so sore.

Hit the gym, never really felt the rush or whatever that guys have described. Not lifting real heavy due to the week of training I am on, so I can’t say I felt much. During the front squats, since I wasn’t using a lot of weight and they were low rep sets, I was only taking around 30 seconds rest between and had no problem with fatigue. Pounded through the rest of the session as well, but again, low weights right now. I did feel much better on the rows this week, so either the finishers are having the desired effect or the TNE was helping some (or both).

Forgot to weigh, so I’ll try and remember tomorrow to get it done before breakfast.

Looking forward to this log, thanks for the detail

27 January 2015
Tuesday

Primo 230mg
test E 125mg
TNE/DBol 75/25mg
Aromasin 12.5mg

A. Band Pull Apart - red skinny band - 20, 20, 20; (X*) Motocross Row - 170 x 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5;
B. Bench - 135 x 10, 155 x 5 / 170 x 5, 190 x 5, 205 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
BBB Military Press - 65 x 10, 10, 10, 10, 10;
A. 1 Arm Cable Row - 120 x 10, 10, 10, 10;
B. Incline DB Press - 50 x 11, 11, 11, 11;

Got more sleep and felt better (somewhat). Weighed in at 214 this morning, was kind of surprised I have already gained 5 pounds. I haven’t really increased my calories that much - at least I hadn’t thought I did. Could be increased glucose etc., but I was kind of surprised to gain that much that quickly. I don’t have access to getting blood work done right now, and I don’t know where 250mg typically falls on the TRT chart but it may be above my natural levels. Have never had my T levels tested, but I probably will in the future. Especially if I continue to cycle periodically.

Injected the full cocktail today, still didn’t feel much of a difference in the gym. The vial still has some crystals in it, maybe I am slightly underdosing. Maybe I am second guessing myself too much…

Raised my training max in the bench, since it had me doing the 10 sets of 3 with under 200. I only bumped it to where it put me at 205 for those sets, but it’s better than where it was. Next week is the final set rep out, so I should be raising my TM again - figuring I probably will across the board.

Felt pretty good in the gym, maybe the T/D is helping and I am just expecting more, who knows. Regardless, cranked through the main sets with no issues and moved into accessory stuff. During the inclines I felt like I got a ‘second wind’ of sorts, I hit that zone where you are able to just keep cranking reps at the same speed with no burn or fatigue setting in.

I haven’t really talked about my nutrition, so here’s a snap shot.

I get up at 545 every morning for breakfast, even though I don’t have to get up that early.

0600 - 4 whole eggs scrambled with onions, peppers, mushrooms and diced ham.
0830ish - First serving of Plazma
0900-1015ish - Gym (2 servings Plazma)
1030-1045 - (depending on when I finished the Plazma) - 1st serving MAG-10
1130 - Lunch, depends on what crap they throw together that day - today’s sucked, so I heated up half a filet mignon and some small potatoes from a few nights ago
2PM - 2nd serving MAG-10 (this was swapped with lunch today, since I didn’t have to work)
4ish - Quest bar
530-6 PM - Dinner; again, depends on what they make. Tonight was corned beef brisket and chicken marsala, ate a little of each with some small potatoes

I know, my calories are fairly low, but it works for me. The only real difference I have made recently was eating more carbs with meals.

Sometimes I will have a second Quest bar after dinner around 8PM, depends on if I am hungry again. I am stocking up on Zero Impact bars for later in my cycle to eat at that time as a good clean calorie increase (30g P, 30g C, 14g F 400 calories, all from natural food sources and low glycemic)

you spend more on supps than I do on rent!

What do you think about Plazma? Is it just whey and complex carbs or is there something more I am missing?

KK - it’s hydrolyzed whey, which has some arguments for and against. Biotest claims it is easier and quicker digested, Lyle MacDonald claims the protein structure due to hydrolysation causes the protein to not be digested and pass straight through the system and eliminated as waste without being absorbed. As for the carbs, it is a complex source, but it is also proven through clinical research to stimulate quicker emptying of the stomach, getting the carbs and anything with it into the intestines where the nutrients are absorbed quicker. I can’t speak to the biochemistry aspect of it, but I can say that when I use it peri-workout (used to use Anaconda, basically the same) I notice a difference compared to my alternate workout nutrition plan. I started back up on the Plazma/MAG-10 during the holidays, and within a few sessions I felt like my strength was coming back a little quicker than normal (had a couple forced layoffs in Nov/Dec due to work and family stuff).

If you can afford it, then I think it is worth the money. If you can’t you can probably concoct a similar drink from standard whey and one of the ‘advanced’ carb products out there. Notice I said similar, not the same. It all really boils down to fuel for the body. Adding the amount of calories and macros in 3 servings of Plazma during the peri-workout timeframe is going to have an effect, even if it is a ‘subpar’ version you made up using stuff from GNC. I do think Plazma is better than that due to the ingredients, but consider it as a premium product compared to a ‘slightly above average’ product. If any of my rambling makes sense.

Yogi - I can afford it right now, but that doesn’t mean the wife doesn’t still complain some.

28 January 2015
Wednesday
TNE/DBol 75/25mg
Aromasin 12.5mg

1A. Dip - BW x 10, 50 x 10, 10, 10, 10;
1B. Screw Curl - 40 x 10, 10, 10, 10;
2A. Incline Curl - 35 x 8, 8, 8;
2B. 1 Arm Pressdown - 60 x 9, 9, 9;
3A. Hammer Curl - 35 x 8, 8, 8;
3B. Cable Twist - 80 x 10, 10, 10;

Arms day. Shifted my schedule a little, seems to work a little better. Gets me done and out of the gym earlier, so I’m not working against the clock to get ready for work. Did a couple more runs of hot (near boiling) water on the TNE/DBol last night, and then again this morning before drawing and injecting. Seems to be less and less crystals, so it’s working (slowly). I think I actually felt the stuff today, but still not as crazy as some guys have described. No finisher since tomorrow is an off day/cardio day.

Really not much to say, except disappointment at how much my strength has dropped. I was repping dips for 90 and more, and it doesn’t even seem like that long ago.

29 January 2015
Thursday
230mg Primo

Cardio
Treadmill ‘Sprints’ - :30/:30 - 10/11/12mph @ 5 incline (HR recovery between rounds, about 2-3:00) - 3 rounds
Incline Walk - 2.5mph @ 8 incline - 20:00

So apparently 27ga needles are too skinny for Primo. Takes a really hard squeeze to get it in, which resulted in my bending the needle. On the plus side, you can squeeze as hard as you want and it’s still a slow push. At least I didn’t break the needle off in my ass, that would have been fun to explain. Light soreness immediately-post injection, but it was gone pretty quick. Been using 22g for filling, looks like I’ll have to start using those for sticks as well. I’ve only used a handful of the 27s… Guess I’ll hold onto them for a future cycle.

[quote]boatguy wrote:
29 January 2015
Thursday
230mg Primo

Cardio
Treadmill ‘Sprints’ - :30/:30 - 10/11/12mph @ 5 incline (HR recovery between rounds, about 2-3:00) - 3 rounds
Incline Walk - 2.5mph @ 8 incline - 20:00

So apparently 27ga needles are too skinny for Primo. Takes a really hard squeeze to get it in, which resulted in my bending the needle. On the plus side, you can squeeze as hard as you want and it’s still a slow push. At least I didn’t break the needle off in my ass, that would have been fun to explain. Light soreness immediately-post injection, but it was gone pretty quick. Been using 22g for filling, looks like I’ll have to start using those for sticks as well. I’ve only used a handful of the 27s… Guess I’ll hold onto them for a future cycle.[/quote]

Have you tried warming the oil up right before injecting?

Also, anything really smaller than a 25g in a 3ml barrel will be a pain to shoot. The smaller the barrel of the syringe it creates more pressure to push the oil out make it a lot easier.

BUDs - Wish I’d known that, all I have are 5ml. I’ll see if I can get ahold of some 3s. Hopefully I can, since I have less of the 22s and 23s than I realized and quite a few more injections to get done. Other problem is, during the weeks where I am using the TNE/DBol, I am injecting 3.3ml from one syringe and the .5ml Test E from a slin pin. Haven’t tried the primo through a slin, wonder if that would be doable for that extra .3ml.

I have tried warming the oil, didn’t seem to help.

You should be able to push primo through a slin.

I’ve tried a 27g on a 3ml barrel. It takes forever. Anything smaller than a 25g should be with a slin pin.

30 January 2015
Friday
75/25mg TNE/DBol

Snatch Grip High Pull from the Hang - 155 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
Deadlift - 185 x 5, / 220 x 5, 250 x 5, 270 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
BBB Front Squat - 155 x 10, 10, 10, 10, 10;
A. Glute Bridge - 225 x 8, 8, 8;
B. Toe Press - 410 x 10, 10, 10;
Ab Rollout - 10, 10, 10;


31 January 2015
Saturday
230mg Primo
125mg Test E
75/25mg TNE/DBol

A. Pullup - BW x 10, 30 x 5, / 40 x 5, 45 x 5, 50 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
B. Military Press - (X), 65 x 10, / 85 x 5, 95 x 5, 105 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
BBB Bench - 145 x 10, 10, 10, 10, 10;
A. Neutral Grip Pullup - 8, 8, 8, 8;
B. Lateral Raise - 25 x 10, 10, 10, 12;

Did no finishers the last two days…Friday I was running a little short on time, and Saturday I just felt done in. Planning to get more consistent with those this coming week (and stay consistent).

Week 3
Juggernaut 2.0
10s Wave - Realization Week

02 February 2015
Monday
230mg Primo
75/25mg TNE/DBol
12.5mg Aromasin

Weight - 217

Front Squat - 135 x 10 / 155 x 5, 185 x 5, 215 x 1, 230 x 15;
BBB Deadlift - 200 x 10, 10, 10, 10, 10;
1A. Snatch Grip High Pull from Pins - 165 x 3, 3, 3, 3, 3;
1B. Reverse Crunch - 14# x 10, 10, 10;
2A. Leg Extension - 110 x 25, 20, 20;
2B. Seated Calf - 80 x 12, 11, 10;


Row - 30/30 - 10 rounds

03 February 2015
Tuesday

A. Band Pull Apart - 20; Motocross Row - 170 x 8, 8, 8, 8;
B. Bench - 135 x 10 / 155 x 5, 185 x 3, 215 x 1, 230 x 10;
BBB Military Press - 75 x 10, 10, 10, 10, 10;
A. Dumbbell Row - 70 x 15, 15, 15;
B. Incline DB Bench - 50 x 12, 12, 12, 12;

Decided to drop the TNE/DBol and see what happens. Even after running it through hot water repeatedly (getting hot water from the coffee machine on the mess deck and then nuking it to near boiling) and shaking, there are still quite a bit of crystals in the vial I have been drawing from. I’m almost convinced this is causing underdosing, if I am getting any hormone at all through the needle. I have read a better way to do it is to put a sterile needle through the stopper to release pressure, and then put it in a water bath in the oven for a little while. Since I can’t do that here, I’ll hold onto it and try again in a future cycle.

Without the T/D injection, I didn’t notice any difference, which convinces me even more I am not getting much out of the vial. Actually got a pretty good burn in my delts today, just from the BBB sets. It continued through the incline DB sets, but was not the hindrance I expected. Had planned on doing a KB finisher but with my shoulders feeling like that already, I opted out.

BBB weights were a little heavier this week, since I’ve adjusted my TM upwards. I started out rather conservatively, and started increasing the numbers. Bench still looks low considering I had been doing 531 before the layoffs, and those weights look paltry compared to what I was doing. However, Juggernaut is more about rep maxes rather than heavy single maxes. I have to keep reminding myself of that, even though I think upping the TM when I did was the right choice. However, this means I won’t be increasing my bench TM for the next wave, since I just got the prescribed reps today. Went over yesterday on front squats, so that one is going up. We’ll see how the rest of the training week shapes up.

Already seeing more fullness in my upper body, but that was after today’s workout. I’ll try and take a progress pic this weekend to see how I look without the post-lifting pump. Already up 8 pounds, and midsection looks about the same so at least it’s not a bunch of fat. Only into my third week, so I have a couple more weeks till I should start seeing the real effects from the primo.

04 February 2015
Wednesday
230mg Primo
125mg Test E
12.5mg aromasin

1A. Dip - BW x 10, 60 x 8, 8, 8, 8;
1B. Screw Curl - 45 x 8, 8, 8, 8;
2A. Incline Curl - 35 x 10, 10, 8;
2B. 1 Arm Pressdown - 60 x 10, 10, 8;
3A. Hammer Curl - 35 x 10, 10, 10;
3B. Cable Twist - 80 x 10, 10, 10;

Good day for arms, ha. Got a pretty good pump on, and got some good work done. I typically progress my weights for assistance and arms like this: whatever weight I am using, say 45 for curls, the first time I will make sure I get all sets at 8 reps. After that I will attempt to increase the rep count each successive workout until I can get all sets at 12. Then I will increase the weight (in the case of curls, I would only go 5 pounds) and start over at 8 reps.

Instead of this, I am going to continue adding 10 pounds to my dips each week until I have trouble finishing all sets at 8, and then I will stay there till I can move up again. Tired of moving these lighter weights when I used to rep quite a bit more. Layoffs suck, especially when it is simply due to schedule/life rather than an injury (thankfully haven’t had too many layoff-inducing injuries in my time).

Sleep sucks on this pig, not sure what it is but I have trouble falling asleep, and then when I wake up to go piss it’s like starting all over. It was like this last time, but eventually it got better. When I got home to my own bed, I slept like a baby the whole time.

05 February 2015
Thursday

Mod. Hurricane Sprints - :30/:30 @ 10/11/12 mph, HR recovery between rounds - 3 rounds (5 inc Round 1, 6 inc Rnd 2, 7 inc Rnd 3)
Immediately following sprints: Incline walk - 2.5mph @ 8 incline, 20:00