T Nation

12 Week Cycle, First Timer

I know these pop up all the time, but aside from the really poorly put together ones I tend to learn from them, so I’m hoping I can learn a bit more from my own thread. Created a new s/n for this, so I’m not new to the board.

Here’s what I’m planning to start in the next 2 weeks along with help of 2 guys that have been running for a bit now, along with the necessary info.

I’m 23 and compete in strength sports, looking to break through to the next level. I’ve been training for 9 years, down to 190lbs from 205lbs 2 months ago after a cut, 5’10". This is a bit undersized for my height, so while the strength gain is most important, I need to put on some weight while I do this too.

What I’m planning to start out with is a very basic, conservative 12 week cycle.

Week 1-12 Test E 400mg/week spread E3D
Week 1-14 Arimidex .25mg EOD

PCT starts week 15
Week 15-17 Nolva 20mg 2x/d

Just looking for any kind of feedback I can get. I know it’s pretty basic so there isn’t much that can be said, but that’s what I was going for.

Also, if I can get ahold of it, I was considering Tren E at 400mg/week to help with strength gains. Would I have to adjust anything if this is the case?

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Do 2 8 week cycles instead, with 4 weeks of nolva in between.

Easier to recover from and better results IMO.

Also, 400mg is a little low IMO. 600mg for 8 weeks, break, repeat, and you will be a happy man, both psychologically and physiologically.

Just my opinion.


A 12 weeker with PCT is pretty stock standard.

BBB, what dosage protocol do you recommend for the 4 weeks of Nolva?

I just saw your advice here and I have to admit it’s novel to me. I am going to go this way with my next cycle coming up.

Do you mean 8 weeks, then straight to the Nolva for 4 weeks, then 8 weeks again, then the final recovery PCT?

He did and 20mg should be fine.

Sorry to answer for you my friend BBB.

Thing is BBB, he wont recover during those 4 weeks, but will have more like a 16wk cycle with a 4 week blast on the HPTA inbetween - i guess it could be decent actually.


[quote]JohnnyBlaze wrote:

A 12 weeker with PCT is pretty stock standard.


Is it standard because everyone does it and doesn’t question the science OR because 12 weekers work better than shorter cycles?

I wouldn’t say 12 week cycles are standard. It may be the most common cycle length but, at least on T-Nation, it is moving away from the standard.

Two 8-weekers with 4 weeks of nolva in between? Easier to recover from than a 12 weeker?

Sounds interesting.

And then followed by a traditional serm-pct for say, 4 weeks?

Would this be with the same dosage / compounds for 12 weeks as for the 16 weeks (say test E 500mg EW), or the same total dosage and drugs spread out over 16 weeks instead of 12?

Now I want to hear what the mighty Bill Roberts has to say about this.

I’m just finishing a 10 week similar cycle, Test E 250mg E3D, Adex 025mg EOD, i made the most of my gains in the first 6 weeks.
If i was to do it again i would do an 8 week cycle frontloaded. Maybe run dbol W3-6. Just my opinion. Hope it helps.

[quote]balisong wrote:
Now I want to hear what the mighty Bill Roberts has to say about this.


Interesting how is taking 4 weeks off in between easier for recovery, when within those 4 weeks you are not even close to being recovered at 20mg/day.

Does the HPTA + your balls get some function back during thoes 4 weeks? Idea being that they are not COMPLETELY shut down for 12-16 weeks?

Bushy, I’m interested in hearing more about why you’d recommend 2 8 week cycles. Would you just run nolva in between, and after the second cycle do a full PCT or taper?

IMO (Cron remember it was I who suggested 20mg/d nolva) i wouldn’t EVER recommend a 12 week cycle for a first.

6 weeks for first few cycles IMO is ample. Maybe 8wks. It is amazing the recovery differences from 6 weeks to 12 weeks.

The cycle thread should be edited I think. As i know many know this to be the case and we dont want newbs to be misled do we?

It is possible with the ester too 6 weeks with a frontload, keep dose same, and results may be lesser but so will sides.



I’m down with that.

What are the advantages and disadvantages to a shorter or longer cycle?

[quote]lightgreenred wrote:
What are the advantages and disadvantages to a shorter or longer cycle?[/quote]

Advantage: you get to learn how to use the search bar early in your posting career!

On the two 8 weeks with 4 weeks inbetween:

Depends on how one counts the 8 weeks. If they’re counted the way I prefer to count – namely, weeks of having suppressive levels – then yes absolutely this can work well.

On the other hand if they’re counted as many do – weeks of injections, therefore injecting right up to the end of week 8 – then depending on what is used it’s really not 4 weeks off, as that last injection may remain suppressive for much of that time. However, if the way it works out is that normal LH production is recovered even only by the end, the key thing in avoiding severe recovery difficulty seems to be moderate length of time, such as 8 weeks, since last having normal LH production. Even if the time of normal production was very short.

At the 400 mg/week usage level of TE, as Bushy says the 4 weeks off will normally work, even if the “on” weeks are not counted as I would prefer.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
lightgreenred wrote:
What are the advantages and disadvantages to a shorter or longer cycle?

Advantage: you get to learn how to use the search bar early in your posting career![/quote]

Well I’m pretty good with a search, but “cycle length” doesn’t turn much up since it’s a pretty broad term. I’m familiar with the effects a longer cycle would have on the HPTA, but then that is what PCT is for. I’d prefer to do a longer cycle since to compete as a pro in my sport, I’d probably be on more than not.

Also, my question was more in regards to why 2 cycles so close together would be more beneficial than a longer cycle. I assume it is to keep avoid supressing the HPTA, hence the nolva run in between, but I’d like to hear more about the effects this as well as the up-down of a cycle like this would have before I was to try something like that.

Seeing as no-one else in this thread besides BBB and Bill Roberts have heard of this, I think it’s safe to ask a question instead of going through 100’s of posts that have NOTHING to do with this particular question.

Bill, I want to clarify some things.

What you are saying, is that the 8th week on should be taken “off” in order to start to clear from the system, so that the next 4 weeks aren’t as suppresive to the HPTA?

I’m still new to this so any help is appreciated.

What I mean is that my method of counting “on” weeks is to count all weeks that are suppressive.

In fact it is possible to keep week 8 quite effective right up nearly till the end of it while having week 9 low enough in levels so as to allow recovery.

This is accomplished by means such as discontinuing injections of longer acting esters early enough to allow this (which will vary according to the half-life and dosages used) and either beefing up the time past that point with increased orals, and/or switching to short acting injectables (acetates or propionates.)

Or if not doing so, then week 8 is fairly lame but that is also doable.