11-year-old Tampa Powerlifter

[quote]bond james bond wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I’m a PL and I have mixed emotions about it. I have nothing against a kid weight training, but PL is about pushing maxes…period end of story. PL is not training. PL is extreme. I’m not sure I’d have my young son maxing in anything that young. A kid can train and get good an strong without pulling max deadlifts. As for this kid, he moved it pretty easy and I didn’t see anything too concerning…but when do you get concerned - when he’s going for 240 and his form doesn’t look so good?

LOL at the deadlift helper bar when they were putting smaller plates on.[/quote]

If he trains under supervision I don’t see the problem. Any sport has even greater risks. His Tae Kwon Do. My son had entered a meet under my supervision at the age of 9. He pulled 135 at a weight of 65. He did his first meet this year going 245/155/360 raw at 132 and the age of 16.

He has never suffered an injury other than some strained upper back muscles, maybe DOMS soreness related that I treated that day. He has however suffered a broken arm while wrestling and other injuries in team sports.

His sister has suffered stress fractures and shin splints while running in track and cross country. Both more serious injuries than when they have lifted. She’s actually planning more lifting to strengthen her body overall to handle the rigors of running better this year.

I think it’s mainly perception with the powerlifting. Also their dad, me is an ART trained chiropractor ands they have access to me in my office gym, so I don’t let little strains etc. grow into big injuries.
Powerlifting is just lifting. Watch the kids close, limit maxes and keep that form tight. If you do that it’s less likely for your kids to get hurt than playing your average team sport. and don’t get me started on those two darling sports for the young ladies, gymnastic and ice skating.

The perception should be the other way around. Has anyone ever seen their injury rates?[/quote]

I work in a hospital and I’ve seen two girls in the last two weeks in emerge with neck injuries, scary shit man seeing a nine year old in a neck brace and the look on the parents face says it all, they’re shitting their pants.

[/quote]

Well, they must not have been “supervised”! :slight_smile:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
I’m not advocating balls to the wall crazy training for kids, just a simple progressive approach with incremental gains btw. Like 5 3 1. There is possibility of injury, but there is more in some of these sports parents just adore.

Gymnastics and Martial arts were the two most dangerous at the Arnold Classic in crap my pants ways. These kids can suffer the worst of the worst injuries. Jui Jitsu was a bad one. Cheerleading is right up there with these two. But people don’t blink at these.

Any sport needs qualified adult supervision. Powerlifting has the perception of being more dangerous than it is in my professional opinion.[/quote]

Again, let me inject “acute” v. “chronic” injury. And PL is not an “incremental” gain sport. You are describing weight training - no objection there.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I’m a PL and I have mixed emotions about it. I have nothing against a kid weight training, but PL is about pushing maxes…period end of story. PL is not training. PL is extreme. I’m not sure I’d have my young son maxing in anything that young. A kid can train and get good an strong without pulling max deadlifts. As for this kid, he moved it pretty easy and I didn’t see anything too concerning…but when do you get concerned - when he’s going for 240 and his form doesn’t look so good?

LOL at the deadlift helper bar when they were putting smaller plates on.[/quote]

If he trains under supervision I don’t see the problem. Any sport has even greater risks. His Tae Kwon Do. My son had entered a meet under my supervision at the age of 9. He pulled 135 at a weight of 65. He did his first meet this year going 245/155/360 raw at 132 and the age of 16.

He has never suffered an injury other than some strained upper back muscles, maybe DOMS soreness related that I treated that day. He has however suffered a broken arm while wrestling and other injuries in team sports.

His sister has suffered stress fractures and shin splints while running in track and cross country. Both more serious injuries than when they have lifted. She’s actually planning more lifting to strengthen her body overall to handle the rigors of running better this year.

I think it’s mainly perception with the powerlifting. Also their dad, me is an ART trained chiropractor ands they have access to me in my office gym, so I don’t let little strains etc. grow into big injuries.
Powerlifting is just lifting. Watch the kids close, limit maxes and keep that form tight. If you do that it’s less likely for your kids to get hurt than playing your average team sport. and don’t get me started on those two darling sports for the young ladies, gymnastic and ice skating.

The perception should be the other way around. Has anyone ever seen their injury rates?[/quote]

I’m surprised at some of your comments. First, PL is not “just lifting”. PL is about lifting the absolute most you can for a single lift. Period end of story. And although I offer no debate about other sports offering higher risk for “acute” injury, I’m not so sure that PL doesn’t offer enough risks of its own for chronic injury. You need look no further than these very pages for all the guys with bad elbow, shoulders, knees and backs from heavy lifting over the course of their training careers. Yes, I know you can get all those things playing other sports too. And please don’t tell me that chronic injuries can be completely avoided with good lifting form. There is no such thing as flawless form in a sport where you will repeatedly attempt single max lifts. I’ll repeat, I have no problem with weight training for the young…I have some reservations about PL for the young.[/quote]

I’m not Tom, but I see where he’s coming from. Comparing powerlfting between kids and your powerlifting is like comparing biddy-ball to the NBA. They’re the same game, but it is not the same sport. He addressed that his kids don’t do true maxes and keep their form pristine. If and when I have kids and they want to compete in sports I will try and persuade them into this with a mix of calisthenics to promote strength, joint/tendon integrity and athleticism.

Whiteflash, weren’t you the one who was bitching in a thread a while back about FULLY GROWN ADULTS making their own decisions on whether or not they were pushing themselves too far?

Yep. Pretty sure you were.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
Whiteflash, weren’t you the one who was bitching in a thread a while back about FULLY GROWN ADULTS making their own decisions on whether or not they were pushing themselves too far?

Yep. Pretty sure you were.[/quote]

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
Whiteflash, weren’t you the one who was bitching in a thread a while back about FULLY GROWN ADULTS making their own decisions on whether or not they were pushing themselves too far?

Yep. Pretty sure you were.[/quote]

If you’re trying to compare when I said that gear in powerlifting is getting out of hand versus letting children compete under the watchful eye of a qualified guardian you’re fucking retarded.

A point a few are missing here is that acute injuries can be chronic and lead to more acute injuries etc. I’ve treated people for over twenty years and most injuries in the 30+ crowd have been coming awhile. What does this mean? those acute injuries you suffered in football, gymnastics, martial arts will cause you problems down the road.

Yep. Right now my powerlifting career is probably done due to a torn labrum in my right shoulder. From a car accident. Yep, a car accident. I suffered a few serious but manageable injuries during my thirty years of lifting. Much less than what my kids have from team sports.

I lifted smart. I stretched, warmed up carefully, and tried to self treat. At the age of 22 I was in chiropractic college and obviously learned more body stuff there. I learned ART and was in the first class of level three graduates. There are very few better people on the planet to train with than me. I might not know the most , but I know those who do and I can treat with the best.

So my kids are okay. But even this kid should be fine with intelligent parents with resources.

I forgot to mention earlier when I commented about acute injuries, but the darling sport for girls is rife with spondylolisthesis, caused by pars interarticularis fractures from their landings. Many of these girls suffer from chronic back pain due to this. You’re crazy if you think a max squat or deadlift puts the same strain on your body as the landings from vaults, uneven bars or the pommel horse.

Then there’s the 10X more likely to blow out an ACL by woman basketball players. You don’t think that this can cause chronic pain and health issues? I’m on the other end of the spectrum and by my twenty years of treating this and look at it the other way. The people who should be arrested for child abuse should be those who allow their kids to wrestle, do martial arts, horseback ride, do gymnastics, play football, play girl’s basketball etc.

I don’t seriously think that way, but the injury rates areout there and they are more dangerous short term and long term.

i see both sides of the argument. and i admit that i’m torn.

one thing that I do always try to remember is that for EVERY athletic activity that kids participate in there are a group of people that will SWEAR TO YOU that the activity is harmful and they are armed with articles written by people with lots of letters after their names to back it up.

and anecdotal evidence from people does not sway my opinion at all. you think your kid should be playing football, baseball, soccer? every one of those sports has its list of horror stories and groups of people that don’t think kids should participate in it.

[quote]bears wrote:
i see both sides of the argument. and i admit that i’m torn.

one thing that I do always try to remember is that for EVERY athletic activity that kids participate in there are a group of people that will SWEAR TO YOU that the activity is harmful and they are armed with articles written by people with lots of letters after their names to back it up.

and anecdotal evidence from people does not sway my opinion at all. you think your kid should be playing football, baseball, soccer? every one of those sports has its list of horror stories and groups of people that don’t think kids should participate in it.[/quote]

What are you torn about though? It’s pretty clear that powerlifting or weight-training in general is safe compared to the collision/impact sports already mentioned. The important thing to look at is the loading rate of the joints, IMO, and in powerlifting it’s pretty low. I would think you’re more likely to suffer chronic injury from lower-impact, sustained activities like distance running.

[quote]tom63 wrote:
A point a few are missing here is that acute injuries can be chronic and lead to more acute injuries etc. I’ve treated people for over twenty years and most injuries in the 30+ crowd have been coming awhile. What does this mean? those acute injuries you suffered in football, gymnastics, martial arts will cause you problems down the road.

[/quote]

Exactly. Chronic injuries are just as likely in popular sports as they are in powerlifting. One is example is basketball leading to bad knees when your older. If you’re playing in a basketball league at 100% effort there is just as much (probably more) chance you’ll end up with a chronic knee problems compared to squatting in PL. There’s a lot more variables in other sports, mostly the other 9 guys on the court that you can collide with, step on and twist an ankle as well as a bunch of other shit that can go wrong. Same goes for martial arts and football. My older friend is full of chronic pain from shit they did in the dojo where practiced martial arts for over 20 years.

I’ve sustained my fair share of injuries playing sports including breaking an ankle and years later tearing an ACL playing football along with a torn groin and bad back from playing basketball from getting bridged. Both the groin tear and bad back were injuries that went from acute to chronic.

I think powerlifting is just bad for people, period. Sure, if you can truly take it super-carefully it might be OK but the average T-filled young man does not. And form can never be perfect when lifting truly heavy.

Most games and sports occur fairly naturally to people from childhood on. Soccer may be really ‘injurious’ on paper but I doubt anyone has ever felt much fear playing soccer, or gotten a feeling of it being ‘wrong’ for their body. You might get a bruise in the leg but you get conditioned and you’re never increasing the stress. After a weight workout, one feels clogged and stiff in a manner unlike most sports.

Your knees are popping, blood pressure is sky high and small pains and injuries are overlooked to be a man. They’re unlike the smooth muscular soreness and the occasional bruise too. The pains and aches occur around joints. I think there’s just something very counterintuitive to test your spine by loading it with increasingly heavy weights, and trying not to slip so you won’t end up paralyzed or worse.

So I feel the difference between PL and other sports is accidents happen in sports, while in PL one is basically intentionally risking harm with every competition lift.

That’s just my opinion; that numerous bodies are sacrificed at the altar of masculinity and would be healthier off in other sports.

[quote]bears wrote:
i see both sides of the argument. and i admit that i’m torn.

one thing that I do always try to remember is that for EVERY athletic activity that kids participate in there are a group of people that will SWEAR TO YOU that the activity is harmful and they are armed with articles written by people with lots of letters after their names to back it up.

and anecdotal evidence from people does not sway my opinion at all. you think your kid should be playing football, baseball, soccer? every one of those sports has its list of horror stories and groups of people that don’t think kids should participate in it.[/quote]

I base my assertions on actual injury rates per sport. I’m not advocating banning any sport, just pointing out that powerlifting is less dangerous than most. One person mentioned being in a static position as opposed to moving and that is very true. No running, jumping, collisions etc.

[quote]Alffi wrote:
I think powerlifting is just bad for people, period. Sure, if you can truly take it super-carefully it might be OK but the average T-filled young man does not. And form can never be perfect when lifting truly heavy.

Most games and sports occur fairly naturally to people from childhood on. Soccer may be really ‘injurious’ on paper but I doubt anyone has ever felt much fear playing soccer, or gotten a feeling of it being ‘wrong’ for their body. You might get a bruise in the leg but you get conditioned and you’re never increasing the stress. After a weight workout, one feels clogged and stiff in a manner unlike most sports.

Your knees are popping, blood pressure is sky high and small pains and injuries are overlooked to be a man. They’re unlike the smooth muscular soreness and the occasional bruise too. The pains and aches occur around joints. I think there’s just something very counterintuitive to test your spine by loading it with increasingly heavy weights, and trying not to slip so you won’t end up paralyzed or worse.

So I feel the difference between PL and other sports is accidents happen in sports, while in PL one is basically intentionally risking harm with every competition lift.

That’s just my opinion; that numerous bodies are sacrificed at the altar of masculinity and would be healthier off in other sports.[/quote]

Thanks for stopping by, but I think you’re mistaking this for the Men’s Health forum.

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Alffi wrote:
I think powerlifting is just bad for people, period. Sure, if you can truly take it super-carefully it might be OK but the average T-filled young man does not. And form can never be perfect when lifting truly heavy.

Most games and sports occur fairly naturally to people from childhood on. Soccer may be really ‘injurious’ on paper but I doubt anyone has ever felt much fear playing soccer, or gotten a feeling of it being ‘wrong’ for their body. You might get a bruise in the leg but you get conditioned and you’re never increasing the stress. After a weight workout, one feels clogged and stiff in a manner unlike most sports.

Your knees are popping, blood pressure is sky high and small pains and injuries are overlooked to be a man. They’re unlike the smooth muscular soreness and the occasional bruise too. The pains and aches occur around joints. I think there’s just something very counterintuitive to test your spine by loading it with increasingly heavy weights, and trying not to slip so you won’t end up paralyzed or worse.

So I feel the difference between PL and other sports is accidents happen in sports, while in PL one is basically intentionally risking harm with every competition lift.

That’s just my opinion; that numerous bodies are sacrificed at the altar of masculinity and would be healthier off in other sports.[/quote]

Thanks for stopping by, but I think you’re mistaking this for the Men’s Health forum.[/quote]

What the Hell, Does he even lift or has ever lifted… “weight workout”??? That is straight from a spectator. I truly believe the nearest his hands has come to a weight is a heavy bag full of socks.

Its funny, when someone makes a statement of “I powerlift” people go to the extreme of seeing a man on stage with 2000lbs on there back or a pic of someone with elephant flying out of there ass after doing squats. However if someone says they “Play soccer or Play basketball or Bodybuilds” the first thought is not the extreme. Its sad that the above comment is what most sideliners/benchwarmer will always believe.

[quote]Alffi wrote:
I think powerlifting is just bad for people, period. Sure, if you can truly take it super-carefully it might be OK but the average T-filled young man does not. And form can never be perfect when lifting truly heavy.

Most games and sports occur fairly naturally to people from childhood on. Soccer may be really ‘injurious’ on paper but I doubt anyone has ever felt much fear playing soccer, or gotten a feeling of it being ‘wrong’ for their body. You might get a bruise in the leg but you get conditioned and you’re never increasing the stress. After a weight workout, one feels clogged and stiff in a manner unlike most sports.

Your knees are popping, blood pressure is sky high and small pains and injuries are overlooked to be a man. They’re unlike the smooth muscular soreness and the occasional bruise too. The pains and aches occur around joints. I think there’s just something very counterintuitive to test your spine by loading it with increasingly heavy weights, and trying not to slip so you won’t end up paralyzed or worse.

So I feel the difference between PL and other sports is accidents happen in sports, while in PL one is basically intentionally risking harm with every competition lift.

That’s just my opinion; that numerous bodies are sacrificed at the altar of masculinity and would be healthier off in other sports.[/quote]

These statements show a clear lack of understanding of the biomechanics of the sports you mentioned as well as the pathomechanics of the associated injuries. Making statements such as these show the fallacy of anecdotal evidence. In the hands of a qualified professional, a lifetime of experience is as valuable as any amount of quantitative research but in the uniformed, narrow minded experience which you are presenting it is similar to an N=1 middle school science fair project.

Please present your ideas as a casual opinion and not fact.

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]bears wrote:
i see both sides of the argument. and i admit that i’m torn.

one thing that I do always try to remember is that for EVERY athletic activity that kids participate in there are a group of people that will SWEAR TO YOU that the activity is harmful and they are armed with articles written by people with lots of letters after their names to back it up.

and anecdotal evidence from people does not sway my opinion at all. you think your kid should be playing football, baseball, soccer? every one of those sports has its list of horror stories and groups of people that don’t think kids should participate in it.[/quote]

What are you torn about though? It’s pretty clear that powerlifting or weight-training in general is safe compared to the collision/impact sports already mentioned. The important thing to look at is the loading rate of the joints, IMO, and in powerlifting it’s pretty low. I would think you’re more likely to suffer chronic injury from lower-impact, sustained activities like distance running.[/quote]

how about the loading rates of the spine and disc spaces?

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]bears wrote:
i see both sides of the argument. and i admit that i’m torn.

one thing that I do always try to remember is that for EVERY athletic activity that kids participate in there are a group of people that will SWEAR TO YOU that the activity is harmful and they are armed with articles written by people with lots of letters after their names to back it up.

and anecdotal evidence from people does not sway my opinion at all. you think your kid should be playing football, baseball, soccer? every one of those sports has its list of horror stories and groups of people that don’t think kids should participate in it.[/quote]

you’re missing the point. this is not about injury rates…of course conventional sports will have higher acute injury rates. we’re talking long term wear and tear on joint and the spine - for crying out loud you’re a chiropractor…why do you conveniently ignore the spine and joints? are you telling me a lifetime of maximally loading your spine in the squat and deadlift and even overhead lifts is healthy and not wrought with danger? answer that question please.

I base my assertions on actual injury rates per sport. I’m not advocating banning any sport, just pointing out that powerlifting is less dangerous than most. One person mentioned being in a static position as opposed to moving and that is very true. No running, jumping, collisions etc.[/quote]

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Alffi wrote:
I think powerlifting is just bad for people, period. Sure, if you can truly take it super-carefully it might be OK but the average T-filled young man does not. And form can never be perfect when lifting truly heavy.

Most games and sports occur fairly naturally to people from childhood on. Soccer may be really ‘injurious’ on paper but I doubt anyone has ever felt much fear playing soccer, or gotten a feeling of it being ‘wrong’ for their body. You might get a bruise in the leg but you get conditioned and you’re never increasing the stress. After a weight workout, one feels clogged and stiff in a manner unlike most sports.

Your knees are popping, blood pressure is sky high and small pains and injuries are overlooked to be a man. They’re unlike the smooth muscular soreness and the occasional bruise too. The pains and aches occur around joints. I think there’s just something very counterintuitive to test your spine by loading it with increasingly heavy weights, and trying not to slip so you won’t end up paralyzed or worse.

So I feel the difference between PL and other sports is accidents happen in sports, while in PL one is basically intentionally risking harm with every competition lift.

That’s just my opinion; that numerous bodies are sacrificed at the altar of masculinity and would be healthier off in other sports.[/quote]

Thanks for stopping by, but I think you’re mistaking this for the Men’s Health forum.[/quote]

What the Hell, Does he even lift or has ever lifted… “weight workout”??? That is straight from a spectator. I truly believe the nearest his hands has come to a weight is a heavy bag full of socks.

Its funny, when someone makes a statement of “I powerlift” people go to the extreme of seeing a man on stage with 2000lbs on there back or a pic of someone with elephant flying out of there ass after doing squats. However if someone says they “Play soccer or Play basketball or Bodybuilds” the first thought is not the extreme. Its sad that the above comment is what most sideliners/benchwarmer will always believe.

[/quote]

Really? Because I played professional basketball. And then after basketball, I started powerlifting. Am I a benchwarmer? PL is about lifting the most weight possible for a single rep. Period. End. Of. Story. Are you telling me that a lifetime of that starting at 11 years old is a good thing? I PL and I can’t clearly say it is. And I’m a guy with more “scars” from basketball than from PL.

This isn’t about whether PL is more or less dangerous than other sports…the question is whether it’s advisable to have someone at 11 begin at that young age what could be a lifetime of maximal loading to the spine.

For the record, I don’t think a lifetime of any competitive sport is “healthy”. Our bodies are not built for repetitive and chronic movement and patterns. So injury from long term participation, whether chronic or acute, is inevitable. Because of this, most experts will advocate that young children play as many different sports as possible. It’s good for their overall athletic development and, you’re not looking at starting repetitive movement patterns on a year round basis.

I’ll repeat, I see nothing wrong with properly supervised weight training - even at a young age. I’m just a bit concerned about starting on a path of max lifts. Don’t think for one minute that that kid who just pulled 220 does not want to bust his little baby nuts to pull 250.

[quote]Alffi wrote:
I think powerlifting is just bad for people, period. Sure, if you can truly take it super-carefully it might be OK but the average T-filled young man does not. And form can never be perfect when lifting truly heavy.

Most games and sports occur fairly naturally to people from childhood on. Soccer may be really ‘injurious’ on paper but I doubt anyone has ever felt much fear playing soccer, or gotten a feeling of it being ‘wrong’ for their body. You might get a bruise in the leg but you get conditioned and you’re never increasing the stress. After a weight workout, one feels clogged and stiff in a manner unlike most sports.

Your knees are popping, blood pressure is sky high and small pains and injuries are overlooked to be a man. They’re unlike the smooth muscular soreness and the occasional bruise too. The pains and aches occur around joints. I think there’s just something very counterintuitive to test your spine by loading it with increasingly heavy weights, and trying not to slip so you won’t end up paralyzed or worse.

So I feel the difference between PL and other sports is accidents happen in sports, while in PL one is basically intentionally risking harm with every competition lift.

That’s just my opinion; that numerous bodies are sacrificed at the altar of masculinity and would be healthier off in other sports.[/quote]

Affi, if you were my kid, i’d throw your computer in the dumpster and tell you to get the hell out of the house and start LIVING.

You sound like somone who is living in their head, playing it safe and not experiencing life. Maybe i’m wrong…

Let’s just wrap our kids in bubble wrap and send them out into the world with escorts to make sure NOTHING happens to them. I think the pendulum has swung a bit far to the over-analytic side. Do you guys remember a time when it was “normal” for a boy to get a broken arm or leg for doing the dumb shit that boys do?

I got my first stitches when I was two. I started training in martial arts when I was eight, played football, wrestling and lacrosse in HS, went to prison and got stabbed five times, got out and played rugby for almost a decade working my way up to D1/Super League. I’ve had three knee surgeries, two screws and a half inch of bone cut off in my shoulder, three surgeries on my hand (had to keep from getting stabbed in the neck), fucked up lower back, more broken bones/sprains than I can actually remember… get the picture?

I lifted weights since I was 14, and made the “power club” (1200 total in BP, SQ, PC, DL - the good ole’ BiggerFasterStronger program) when I was 16 - nothing world class, but it was pretty good for my body weight. I was my strongest/most powerful and heaviest when I was 29 at 245 lbs and a starting loosehead prop (after 4 very successful and well planned cycles of AAS). Then the knee injury happened and the shoulder the following season and I hung it up. Would I go back and do anything differently? HELL NO! I kicked ass and took names when I was in my prime and I loved every minute of it.

The point is, if you are going to play sports you WILL get hurt. But all this talk of “the parents should be sued” is just BULLSHIT! I mean come the fuck ON! Next they’ll be making it illegal to go to an amusement park because someone might get sick on the rides! It’s LIFE. LIVING implies a certain degree of risk. If you play sports and shoot for excellence in whatever activity you pursue, you are at a greater risk than the people sitting there WATCHING.

I think encouraging our children to be excellent and to learn the lessons that ONLY rough, physical sports can teach is FAR more important than worrying about the occasional broken bone. Will there be extremely rare and unfortunate injuries that are very serious or even life threatening. Yes there will. With proper supervision and coaching, these risks hopefully will be minimal. But going through life in fear and teaching our kids to be in fear is just doing everyone involved a disservice.

Even after all of the injuries I have sustained, I still hit the gym three or four times a week. Does it hurt to get up in the morning on a cold day? Absofuckinglutely! I LIMP to the bathroom every morning regardless of the temperature. But I am still in pretty good shape considering, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

/rant LOL