[quote]alexus wrote:
my sentence was awkward. didn’t meant to imply that dimas had a weird or ugly looking jerk - his jerk looks awesome to me. just meant to express surprise that he was stronger that way.
makes sense about it being fine for someone who is massively strong on the jerk (compared to clean) to do – but is that often the case? i thought the jerk tended to be limiting. i mean i guess that technically proficient lifters simply are stronger with the power versions… but i’m really surprised. i don’t understand why on earth. but then i think i’ve been surprised at how little technically proficient lifters get out of full cleans / snatches compared to power versions, too.[/quote]
well if you think about it, it’s still a jerk… just a power jerk, lol. He’s still using a crazy amount of power, and he’ll duck under it as far as he needs to. Same power, same distance. Just need to be solid on your technique because it’s harder to save a power jerk. No prob for Dimas though since he was taught as a kid.
yeah. so if you can powerjerk x amount of weight… you should be able to split or squat jerk x + a whole heap more amount of weight.
ASSUMING technical proficiency.
uh. that was why the split jerk was an ‘advancement’ in technique over the powerjerk, i thought. and the full (squat) versions of the clean and snatch too
[quote]alexus wrote:
he’ll duck under it as far as he needs to…
yeah. so if you can powerjerk x amount of weight… you should be able to split or squat jerk x + a whole heap more amount of weight.
ASSUMING technical proficiency.
uh. that was why the split jerk was an ‘advancement’ in technique over the powerjerk, i thought. and the full (squat) versions of the clean and snatch too [/quote]
You’re equating the power jerk as being a “power” movement in the same way as a power clean & snatch and looking at a split jerk as equivalent to a squat clean/snatch. In my eyes the argument would be better looked at in comparison with lifters being able to squat clean and snatch a whole load more than the can split clean and snatch because it allows then to get lower.
I think the term power jerk is almost a misnomer. Yeah, the angle in the thighs has to be more than 90o or it’s a squat jerk, however, in a split jerk the front leg never gets anywhere near that 90o angle so as long as the lifter has the shoulder flexibility then they technically “should” be able to power jerk as much as they split jerk. The main issue is that there is less room for error on the power jerk.
given the potential size / potential strength of the muscles of the legs…
then given technical proficiency (some lifters train for long hours for a number of years from a very young age)…
you should always be able to stand up (with your legs) more weight than you could pull (power) to the same height.
so a split should (theoretically) be stronger than a power because the split positions the lifters torso lower under the bar so the bar doesn’t need to be pulled as high…
so a squat should (theoretically) be stronger than a power and a split because the full squat positions the lifters torso lower under the bar so the bar doesn’t need to be pulled as high.
at least… that is what i read about the evolution of weightlifting technique with respect to power, splot, split, squat cleans and snatches.
so… GIVEN THAT (for the sake of argument) that is the case for cleans and snatches…
what the hell is going on with jerks? same thing? in which case we should expect to see ultimate convergence on the squat jerk… or something different? which might explain why the hell we haven’t seen ultimate convergence on the squat jerk.
i’m upset because theoretically jerks should be the same.
but the data seems to say that they aren’t the same.
so why the hell aren’t they the same?
what is going on?
is the analysis of ‘lower under the bar = more weight lifted’ for cleans and snatches wrong, somehow?? or what??
[quote]alexus wrote:
i really am in earnest about this btw. it does keep me awake at nights…[/quote]
I would say it has something to do with the legs being in a relatively weakened state after you stand up with a clean. Yeah sure, you might be able to get under more weight if you attempt a squat jerk, but maybe there’s not enough jam in your legs to stand up with it from rock bottom twice. Some lifters with insane leg strength are obviously exceptions to this. I also think recovering from a split uses the leg muscles just differently enough so that it’s significantly easier to recover a split jerk after a heavy clean than it is a squat jerk after a similarly heavy clean. Also, in a post-clean fatigued state, technical errors are more likely no matter how long you’ve trained, and the split jerk offers more room for error than a squat jerk does. Just my two cents.
hmm. interesting points about the split vs squat jerk. i think i’ve heard other people say something similar about squatting the weight up twice. anybody got any different?? what you say makes sense, though…
so then power vs split jerk…
and how about splot? isn’t that sort of what kendrick farris does? his does not look symmetrical to me…
I’m probably not going to get this right because I don’t really understand but two coaches I know are in disagreement about power vs split.
One said split because it has more room for error which is required for 95% of lifters but the other says that the power jerk is more perfect a lift, it’s balanced and when executed correctly it is so much more efficient and therefore a good power jerker is going to jerk more weight than with a split jerk that every lifter should be training to be proficient at it.
[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m probably not going to get this right because I don’t really understand but two coaches I know are in disagreement about power vs split.
One said split because it has more room for error which is required for 95% of lifters but the other says that the power jerk is more perfect a lift, it’s balanced and when executed correctly it is so much more efficient and therefore a good power jerker is going to jerk more weight than with a split jerk that every lifter should be training to be proficient at it.
[/quote]
It’s possible (to your second point). I mean, look at this Chinese fella. That’s a beauty of a power jerk and no one can argue against that
Margin of error is a lot smaller in power/squat jerk than in split jerk. If the bar is in front with power/squat jerk there is very little the lifter can do to save the lift. When you split jerk the legs are wider so you have more balanced position and some chance to recover even if the lift is positioned wrongly. Lu Xiaojun has missed couple lifts in worlds because the bar was a little in front, maybe like 2-3cm!!
[quote]alexus wrote:
hmm. interesting points about the split vs squat jerk. i think i’ve heard other people say something similar about squatting the weight up twice. anybody got any different??[/quote]
lol, how much more do you need? As others have said, it’s very demanding in terms of leg strength, mobility and technical precision. Do you ever squat/power jerk in training? If not, doing so would probably supply you with the answers for which you are looking. There was a time when I thought the squat jerk had to be the most efficient method, too. After training it for about a month I realized that it’s fucking HARD. Especially for someone who started weightlifting in his twenties with less-than-stellar mobility. Same with the power jerk, to a lesser extent. However, I feel that the precision required by the power jerk actually makes it a good training tool for the split jerk. It reinforces the need to dip and drive the bar perfectly.
i have injuries that mean my toes don’t really stretch back from the ball of my foot. that basically prevents me split jerking (or lunging / split squatting more generally) since i can’t properly anchor myself with my back leg.
i was working the squat jerk. like… all the way down. it was weak, to be sure.
then people were all about me power-jerking (not even trying to get under it - just drive it high). i’m trying to figure out what it is that i’m going to do…
i’m never going to the olympics (shocking, i know). i’m all about the technical proficiency / mastery.
i have injuries that mean my toes don’t really stretch back from the ball of my foot. that basically prevents me split jerking (or lunging / split squatting more generally) since i can’t properly anchor myself with my back leg.
i was working the squat jerk. like… all the way down. it was weak, to be sure.
then people were all about me power-jerking (not even trying to get under it - just drive it high). i’m trying to figure out what it is that i’m going to do…
i’m never going to the olympics (shocking, i know). i’m all about the technical proficiency / mastery.
so…
looks like for me…
squat jerk it is.[/quote]
Generally what you should be doing (or so it seems coming from lifters like kendrick farris) is power jerking as much as you can until your forced down lower and lower. So you know you don’t have to be squatting from the start just when the weight gets heavy.
BUT maybe squat jerking all the time will help you practice it.
Generally what you should be doing (or so it seems coming from lifters like kendrick farris) is power jerking as much as you can until your forced down lower and lower. So you know you don’t have to be squatting from the start just when the weight gets heavy.
BUT maybe squat jerking all the time will help you practice it. [/quote]
I heard that too.
But then I also heard that about power vs full cleans and snatches.
That you power them and get lower as the weight gets heavier, I mean.
Only… Is that really true???
Some people think that the TECHNIQUE MASTERY of the full lifts can only be had by practicing the full lifts. You just have to suck up being weaker at them than the power lifts for a while untill your technique comes right (or in my case untill my legs get as strong as they are supposed to be).
Ditto for squat jerks vs power jerks or are they specially different?
Generally what you should be doing (or so it seems coming from lifters like kendrick farris) is power jerking as much as you can until your forced down lower and lower. So you know you don’t have to be squatting from the start just when the weight gets heavy.
BUT maybe squat jerking all the time will help you practice it. [/quote]
I heard that too.
But then I also heard that about power vs full cleans and snatches.
That you power them and get lower as the weight gets heavier, I mean.
Only… Is that really true???
Some people think that the TECHNIQUE MASTERY of the full lifts can only be had by practicing the full lifts. You just have to suck up being weaker at them than the power lifts for a while untill your technique comes right (or in my case untill my legs get as strong as they are supposed to be).
Ditto for squat jerks vs power jerks or are they specially different?
If different…
Uh…
How come, again??
[/quote]
Well seems your not a pro lifter you should probably do them all the time as people like LU and Kendrick have done them thousands of times.
Also on your second post, I think you and I bought know that what you need to do is squat alot. Like alot. Like really alot.
can get 45kg for powerjerk - which is crappy crap crap. certainly can’t get that with a squat jerk - though i haven’t trained them for a very long time.
