T Nation

10 Years Lifting, Want Some Advice Please

I’ve read the stickys, I’ve printed out all the steroid profiles from online and read up on them. I’ve also browsed through these helpful forums quite a bit the past week. I am thinking of the following. But first, who the heck I am.

-28 yrs old in one month
-lifting since age 17
-generally a ecto/mesomorph…meaning, I started at 150 lbs at 6’3", but got to 240 naturally by age 22. It’s hard work, and the Big 3/powerlifting was my foundation to get results.
-I currently weigh 215-218 at 9%…basically the best shape I’ve ever been in while holding some muscle. (I competed at age 23, but lost a ton of muscle, started diet at 236, ended 11 weeks later with water cut at just under 200 :frowning:
-I’d like to compete again, and I’m feeling like I’m reaching my genetic potential here shortly, so I’m contemplating going on a cycle to put on 20 or so lbs.

PLAN: (please critique)

W1-12 Test E or C 250mg on Mon/Thurs
W1-6 Dbol 30mg (10mg 3x/d)
W1-12 Adex as needed (or should I use Nolva?)

PCT:
W13-16 Nolva 20mg ED to EOD

I’m considering adding oral Winny, would there be any benefit to that? And is it like Dbol where you should only use it for 6 weeks? Because it’s also hard on the liver?

I know this might sounds lame, but what about just a quick and strong 8 week cycle or oral Dbol and oral Winny? 30 mg/d Dbol, 50mg/d Winny? I shouldn’t have a problem injecting, but this way is obviously less stressful for a first time user.

And help is appreciated, if I sound like a newbie, well I am.

[quote]Justin27 wrote:
I’ve read the stickys, I’ve printed out all the steroid profiles from online and read up on them. I’ve also browsed through these helpful forums quite a bit the past week. I am thinking of the following. But first, who the heck I am.

-28 yrs old in one month
-lifting since age 17
-generally a ecto/mesomorph…meaning, I started at 150 lbs at 6’3", but got to 240 naturally by age 22. It’s hard work, and the Big 3/powerlifting was my foundation to get results.
-I currently weigh 215-218 at 9%…basically the best shape I’ve ever been in while holding some muscle. (I competed at age 23, but lost a ton of muscle, started diet at 236, ended 11 weeks later with water cut at just under 200 :frowning:
-I’d like to compete again, and I’m feeling like I’m reaching my genetic potential here shortly, so I’m contemplating going on a cycle to put on 20 or so lbs.

PLAN: (please critique)

W1-12 Test E or C 250mg on Mon/Thurs
W1-6 Dbol 30mg (10mg 3x/d)
W1-12 Adex as needed (or should I use Nolva?)

PCT:
W13-16 Nolva 20mg ED to EOD

I’m considering adding oral Winny, would there be any benefit to that? And is it like Dbol where you should only use it for 6 weeks? Because it’s also hard on the liver?

I know this might sounds lame, but what about just a quick and strong 8 week cycle or oral Dbol and oral Winny? 30 mg/d Dbol, 50mg/d Winny? I shouldn’t have a problem injecting, but this way is obviously less stressful for a first time user.

And help is appreciated, if I sound like a newbie, well I am.[/quote]

You’re proposed cycle seems like a good one, but I am relatively new myself and you should not take my word for that. However, it was highly recommended that with esters such as C and E, that you don’t kick start a cycle with an oral such as D-bol or anadrol, because it will be more beneficial in the long run to start them 3 weeks after your first injection. They say that you will actually feel it after the T starts to kick in which will be great for you in the long run.

If you wanted to do two orals, then I would cut the D-bol down to 3 weeks and Winstrol down to 3 weeks also, as to be less harsh on your liver. I don’t know if you should stack them in the same 3 week span, or not. Hopefully someone with some experience on their hands can chime in. I can’t help you on the oral only cycles, I’ve heard bad things and good things, but they are possible. I am just not sure as to with what and how, in fact, I’ll do some research on that right now.

sounds like you have done your searching mate so well done on that.

Winstrol as both an oral or injectable is what is called a 17AA steroid, meaning that it will survive at least the first pass through the liver, the same as dianabol.

I would not reccomend using both at the same time, rather upping the dianabol to 50mg per day in conjunction with your testosterone injections.

All oral cycles are generally viewed as a no no in these parts although alot of research has recently been conducted by various members of this community on start/stop/start cycles i.e. 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off using oral steroids which have a direct synergy with one another such as anadrol and winstrol or dianabol and anavar, this is worth a read.

I will still reccomend though that you stick to your original cycle plan, maybe even drop the dianabol for your first cycle as if you encounter a bad reaction yo wont know which drug has caused it.

Go with adex over nolva while on cycle and for pct research the test taper, stickied at the top of the forum and if you run nolva run it everday during your recovery.

^ Thanks fellas, your input is dually noted. I’ll continue my research. So maybe just Test injected twice a week to see how I react to that?

[quote]Justin27 wrote:
^ Thanks fellas, your input is dually noted. I’ll continue my research. So maybe just Test injected twice a week to see how I react to that?[/quote]

Bravo Justin!

Way to research and post articulate, intelligent questions.

You’re on your way my friend.

          Yes sir, test only is very good.

You have adex or another AI “just in case”?? Might be a good idea to have that and nolva, though you probably won’t need the use of either during cycle at this conservative yet respectable and productive dosage.

                   good luck,

                    ToneBone

^ Thank you, I appreciate the kind words and info.

[quote]Justin27 wrote:
^ Thank you, I appreciate the kind words and info. [/quote]

Why can’t all newbies be like this, myself included when I was a newbie, and pretty much still am. Damn the past and present me!

[quote]Justin27 wrote:
I’ve read the stickys, I’ve printed out all the steroid profiles from online and read up on them. I’ve also browsed through these helpful forums quite a bit the past week. I am thinking of the following. But first, who the heck I am.

-28 yrs old in one month
-lifting since age 17
-generally a ecto/mesomorph…meaning, I started at 150 lbs at 6’3", but got to 240 naturally by age 22. It’s hard work, and the Big 3/powerlifting was my foundation to get results.
-I currently weigh 215-218 at 9%…basically the best shape I’ve ever been in while holding some muscle. (I competed at age 23, but lost a ton of muscle, started diet at 236, ended 11 weeks later with water cut at just under 200 :frowning:
-I’d like to compete again, and I’m feeling like I’m reaching my genetic potential here shortly, so I’m contemplating going on a cycle to put on 20 or so lbs.

PLAN: (please critique)

W1-12 Test E or C 250mg on Mon/Thurs
W1-6 Dbol 30mg (10mg 3x/d)
W1-12 Adex as needed (or should I use Nolva?)

PCT:
W13-16 Nolva 20mg ED to EOD

I’m considering adding oral Winny, would there be any benefit to that? And is it like Dbol where you should only use it for 6 weeks? Because it’s also hard on the liver?

I know this might sounds lame, but what about just a quick and strong 8 week cycle or oral Dbol and oral Winny? 30 mg/d Dbol, 50mg/d Winny? I shouldn’t have a problem injecting, but this way is obviously less stressful for a first time user.

And help is appreciated, if I sound like a newbie, well I am.[/quote]

Hey Justin good to see you here.

I think your first plan looks great. You had better move that PCT to start at Week 15, though. Some guys do 40/40/20/20, but others will tell you (with studies to back it up) that 20mgs of nolva will give you almost the exact same results as will 40, and that you are better off going 20/20/10/10. If you want another alternative that is very popular around here, see the test-taper thread stickied at the top of this forum.

Injecting is NO BIG DEAL. At all. I’m pinning every day presently and I seriously look forward to it each day. Don’t waste your first cycle on an all-oral run. As I said in your other thread, if you wanted to try a higher-dosage, shorter-duration cycle, something like 750-900mgs a week for about 8 weeks has been used very successfully, and I’m sure some of these guys will chime in. One apparent benefit to this is that you will experience less shutdown with the shorter cycle. Of course, there is always the chance for increased sides.

You’re going to have a great cycle. You’re going about it in the right way and you are in the right place. I look forward to following your progress.

[quote]Thewannabe wrote:
You’re proposed cycle seems like a good one, but I am relatively new myself and you should not take my word for that. However, it was highly recommended that with esters such as C and E, that you don’t kick start a cycle with an oral such as D-bol or anadrol, because it will be more beneficial in the long run to start them 3 weeks after your first injection. They say that you will actually feel it after the T starts to kick in which will be great for you in the long run.
[/quote]

Kick starting a cycle with an oral is perfectly fine. I had terrific results kick starting with dbol my own first cycle.

And Justin, I don’t understand why you are interested in adding winstrol. I wouldn’t worry about it. Especially as this is going to be a bulking cycle. Right?

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Justin27 wrote:
I’ve read the stickys, I’ve printed out all the steroid profiles from online and read up on them. I’ve also browsed through these helpful forums quite a bit the past week. I am thinking of the following. But first, who the heck I am.

-28 yrs old in one month
-lifting since age 17
-generally a ecto/mesomorph…meaning, I started at 150 lbs at 6’3", but got to 240 naturally by age 22. It’s hard work, and the Big 3/powerlifting was my foundation to get results.
-I currently weigh 215-218 at 9%…basically the best shape I’ve ever been in while holding some muscle. (I competed at age 23, but lost a ton of muscle, started diet at 236, ended 11 weeks later with water cut at just under 200 :frowning:
-I’d like to compete again, and I’m feeling like I’m reaching my genetic potential here shortly, so I’m contemplating going on a cycle to put on 20 or so lbs.

PLAN: (please critique)

W1-12 Test E or C 250mg on Mon/Thurs
W1-6 Dbol 30mg (10mg 3x/d)
W1-12 Adex as needed (or should I use Nolva?)

PCT:
W13-16 Nolva 20mg ED to EOD

I’m considering adding oral Winny, would there be any benefit to that? And is it like Dbol where you should only use it for 6 weeks? Because it’s also hard on the liver?

I know this might sounds lame, but what about just a quick and strong 8 week cycle or oral Dbol and oral Winny? 30 mg/d Dbol, 50mg/d Winny? I shouldn’t have a problem injecting, but this way is obviously less stressful for a first time user.

And help is appreciated, if I sound like a newbie, well I am.

Hey Justin good to see you here.

I think your first plan looks great. You had better move that PCT to start at Week 15, though. Some guys do 40/40/20/20, but others will tell you (with studies to back it up) that 20mgs of nolva will give you almost the exact same results as will 40, and that you are better off going 20/20/10/10. If you want another alternative that is very popular around here, see the test-taper thread stickied at the top of this forum.

Injecting is NO BIG DEAL. At all. I’m pinning every day presently and I seriously look forward to it each day. Don’t waste your first cycle on an all-oral run. As I said in your other thread, if you wanted to try a higher-dosage, shorter-duration cycle, something like 750-900mgs a week for about 8 weeks has been used very successfully, and I’m sure some of these guys will chime in. One apparent benefit to this is that you will experience less shutdown with the shorter cycle. Of course, there is always the chance for increased sides.

You’re going to have a great cycle. You’re going about it in the right way and you are in the right place. I look forward to following your progress.[/quote]

Ok, thanks.
I’ll start the Nolva a bit later than. Is that because you should wait for the last injection’s effects to carry out? (which can take a few weeks after?)

I think I might as well take advantage of it being my first cycle and just stretch it to the full 12 weeks. As you mentioned in my other thread, I might be better off not doing dbol at all, so I can see how I react to the Test E alone. I was talking with a bud that has done it before and he thought just doing 10mg morning/10 mg night for the first 4 weeks would be a nice kickstart with the Dbol, thoughts?

I can tell I’m in the right place hehe, from the well written stickys, to members such as yourself taking time out of their lives to help newbies like me get started properly, thank you for that.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Thewannabe wrote:
You’re proposed cycle seems like a good one, but I am relatively new myself and you should not take my word for that. However, it was highly recommended that with esters such as C and E, that you don’t kick start a cycle with an oral such as D-bol or anadrol, because it will be more beneficial in the long run to start them 3 weeks after your first injection. They say that you will actually feel it after the T starts to kick in which will be great for you in the long run.

Kick starting a cycle with an oral is perfectly fine. I had terrific results kick starting with dbol my own first cycle.

And Justin, I don’t understand why you are interested in adding winstrol. I wouldn’t worry about it. Especially as this is going to be a bulking cycle. Right?[/quote]

As far as the Winstrol, it’s 3fold.

  1. If I did all oral, I’ve read that it works well with Dbol.

  2. I tend to stay on the lean side year round…call it vein, call it what you will, but I heard Winstrol helps maintain that leanness. As I’m sure you guys will say, A time and a place for everything, and trying to stay lean will cycling probably isn’t the best idea hehe.

  3. I believe Winny is in the grouping of the 19-nors?? (unsure)like Deca and Tren, that can have more anabolic effects, so I figured that would pair well with Test’s more androbolic effects.

^I assumed some of this, and thought I had read/heard others.

This cycle is one of my favorites. I’ve had some nice gains in mass with test/d-bol stack in the past. My experience was to take 50mg ed d-bol w1-8 & about 250mg test cyp e3-4d increasing it slightly as needed throughout the 12 week cycle and i would gain approx. 20 lbs on a clean diet. I have used this cycle at least 5 times and i never get tired of it. As ref, keep adex and nolva on hand just in case. Keep up the good work

[quote]Justin27 wrote:

As far as the Winstrol, it’s 3fold.

  1. If I did all oral, I’ve read that it works well with Dbol.
    [/quote]

As was said before, stay away from all oral for now.

Winstrol is going to keep bloating down and contribute to muscle density while on cycle, but it is not going to do anything for actual leanness. That will come from your diet.

You are very lean already and I don’t really think you have much to worry about. If you obsess too much over leanness when your real concern should be gaining the muscle you desire, you are going to shortchange your gains. Don’t forget that. This is your first cycle. Make the most of it. (And you know all this already)

Pretty positive winstrol is NOT a 19-nor and acts nothing like one. Dbol is a good oral to use in a first bulking cycle. Winstrol is not usually recommended.

[quote]Justin27 wrote:
Ok, thanks.
I’ll start the Nolva a bit later than. Is that because you should wait for the last injection’s effects to carry out? (which can take a few weeks after?)
[/quote]

Yes.

If you are going to add the dbol, you should take 30mgs a day at the very least. Split your dosage into 3 times a day, spaced around 6 hours apart.

^ Thanks again Cortes, I think I’ll just do the Test E 500 mg a week, and possibly the 30 mg/d of Dbol for weeks 1-4. I’m excited to pack on some more size. 250 here I come! haha :wink:

IMO as long as you have your head on your shoulders which it seems as though you do, adding in 4 weeks of winstrol at the end would be awesome. if only for the SHBG affinity to truly maximize your first cycle benefits, but also to “harden up” which is mainly controlled by diet but winny would aid in this also.

As far as the d-bol cortes is right in the fact that you dont even wanna waste your time with anything less than 30mg. you may find you can bump it up too. Personally i am very resistant to AAS and find i need higher doses to achieve results.

I’d use some clomid during PCT to kick your test levels back up. Thats a good first cycle.