TBT. Makes sense to me.
I read everything I can, but I never read anything with the view of finding a routine. I read everything hoping to learn something I can use to improve MY routine. Whether it be a principle, an exercise variation or a nutritional tip. I’ll learn from anybody, but nobody has all the answers.
–Tiribulus->
[quote]caneman wrote:
He [Waterbury] simply has a shitload of empirical evidence that says TBT works better for more people than a bodypart split.
[/quote]
no, he [Waterbury] said “Total-body workouts beat any split, any day of the week”…
the basic westside program is a split training system, has Waterbury proven his TBT protocol to be superior? Has he trained more champions that Louie Simmons? No, he hasn’t…
both training paradigms have worked very well for beginner, intermediate, and advanced lifters…so why make the absurd claim that one is far greater than the other “any day of the week”?
being closed-minded (as Waterbury is) towards differing, yet extremely successful, training protocols is foolish…
[quote]rainjack wrote:
CW has found a niche with his TBT philosophy. Why are you knocking the guy?
[/quote]
simple, Waterbury’s arrogant snub of any training method other than TBT, no matter how sucessful that training paradigm is, reeks of dogmatic foolishness…
well shit then, Tony Little must be the greatest trainer ever, the guy’s made millions designing programs for his gazell apparatus…
I guess you also believe the greatest musician is the one that makes the most money?
[quote]DPH wrote:
being closed-minded (as Waterbury is) towards differing, yet extremely successful, training protocols is foolish…[/quote]
You are quick to label. Is a Chevy dealer equally as foolish? How about a Ford dealer? Dodge?
The trainers that contribute here have basically branded themselves.
How is it that hard to see?
It all works! Training comes down to personal preference and how well you respond (genetics).
We all respond to exercise diffently and have our preferences.
We just have to make sure we are following the absolutes: Systematic progressive overload, recovery, and nutrition. If these three elements are present then you will improve within the limits of your genetics.
[quote]DPH wrote:
rainjack wrote:
CW has found a niche with his TBT philosophy. Why are you knocking the guy?
simple, Waterbury’s arrogant snub of any training method other than TBT, no matter how sucessful that training paradigm is, reeks of dogmatic foolishness…
How much money have the haters made designing programs?
well shit then, Tony Little must be the greatest trainer ever, the guy’s made millions designing programs for his gazell apparatus…
I guess you also believe the greatest musician is the one that makes the most money?[/quote]
You just don’t get it. TBT is what CW does. If you don’t like it, or the way CW markets it - don’t read his shit.
I never said he was great. I asked how many of the haters have made any money designing programs. But you side stepped. If you don’t have the balls to do it - don’t throw rocks at the guys that do.
Try answering a question without the side step: Have you ever tried any of CW’s stuff? It’s yes or no - No rock analogies needed.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
You are quick to label. Is a Chevy dealer equally as foolish? How about a Ford dealer? Dodge?
[/quote]
are you implying the trainers here are no better than unscrupulous car salesman?
are you saying they’re more concerned with selling themselves than doing what is best for their clients?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I am assuming that there are a bunch of folks on here that have never tried any of CW’s programs. If you had - you would not be slamming him so hard because everyone of his prgrams I have tried have worked.
You rarely see anyone post saying that his programs suck. I have never gotten a thing out of CT’s programs. I won’t say they suck - but they don’t work for me.
Everything works…for a while. Nothing works forever.
CW has found a niche with his TBT philosophy. Why are you knocking the guy?
How much money have the haters made designing programs?
[/quote]
Exactly. This issue has been tread and retread a million times…some folks just can’t let it go.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
DPH wrote:
rainjack wrote:
CW has found a niche with his TBT philosophy. Why are you knocking the guy?
simple, Waterbury’s arrogant snub of any training method other than TBT, no matter how sucessful that training paradigm is, reeks of dogmatic foolishness…
How much money have the haters made designing programs?
well shit then, Tony Little must be the greatest trainer ever, the guy’s made millions designing programs for his gazell apparatus…
I guess you also believe the greatest musician is the one that makes the most money?
You just don’t get it. TBT is what CW does. If you don’t like it, or the way CW markets it - don’t read his shit.
I never said he was great. I asked how many of the haters have made any money designing programs. But you side stepped. If you don’t have the balls to do it - don’t throw rocks at the guys that do.
Try answering a question without the side step: Have you ever tried any of CW’s stuff? It’s yes or no - No rock analogies needed. [/quote]
In this case it is you who isn’t getting it. “…beats any split, any day of the week” is what is at issue here. That is the argument. And it is a valid argument.
How does trying any of his shit validate the above statement?
I agree it is very annoying to hear somebody say that something works much better than something else without any evidence to prove otherwise.
It is fine to say that you believe something works, to provide evidence that you feel supports your claims, and to say that in your opinion one thing is better than another.
But if you attack something (like splits) when there is tremendous evidence for them and little evidence for your theory, you should expect to get blasted. If I said NOT doing squats, deads, and bench is the best way to get good at powerlifting, people would be right to question me, and unless I had a lot of evidence for that (either I or a bunch of people I trained excelled in that sport) then what I say is not going to carry that much weight.
It is strong evidence that virtually all (I can’t think of one who doesn’t) bodybuilders, natural and pro, use a split. As someone else said, outrageous claims require outrageous evidence so where is the outrageous evidence?
If the next Mr O or some legion of BBers or other huge guys appear that have been doing total body, then I will happy say that total body may be the best for size. The basic problem is that it is more important to train intensely than it is to train frequently, all else being equal, and splits allow for greater intensity while total body forces you to reduce it (on a specific muscle).
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and different things work for different people. But to say that full body work outs are superior to splits every time is just complete bullshit. I have a problem with the absolute matter of that statement and I really dont give a fuck what you fanboys think about that.
As pointed out by myself and other posters in this thread and in the past, I am open to trying different things but I would like to see it in action before I try it. Every BB’er and pro I know, whether natural or juiced, trains using a split and I can see the result. I aspire to be as big and lean as I naturally can be.
So show me these people that have achieved the physique I am after using his methods and then talk to me. Has he ever trained a top BB’er? I dont know but everytime I ask to see some evidence I dont get an answer.
A
[quote]DPH wrote:
rainjack wrote:
You are quick to label. Is a Chevy dealer equally as foolish? How about a Ford dealer? Dodge?
are you implying the trainers here are no better than unscrupulous car salesman?
are you saying they’re more concerned with selling themselves than doing what is best for their clients?
[/quote]
To them - what is best for their clients is what the trainers do best.
You say car salesmen are unscrupulous. Maybe they are. I am talking about the dealers. You know - the place that hires the unscrupulous salesmen.
The dealers have a vested financial interest to make sure that you know that their particular brand of car is unquestionalbly the best damn automobile ever made.
Putting words in my mouth won’t work. You have to be able to understand business to understand the concept here. You completely miss the boat.
And you evidently have no clue how rough the training biz is.
This is not a pie in the sky discussion about training theories. CW said that at the beginning of an article. An article that was about his training method.
What kind of trainer would say, “I don’t know how good this is - but would you mind trying it anyway”? I’ll tell you what kind - an unemployed one.
This is a stupid discussion. I’m sure CW could give a flying fuck what a bunch of non-paying leeches think about what he says as an intro to an article.
I happen to think his stuff is the best on here. DO I agree with what he said? No. Hell - I only do total body training once or twice a year. But his shit works everytime I use it.
To call him out when you know dick about his industry is just bullshit.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
You just don’t get it.
[/quote]
no, YOU don’t get it…
Waterbury’s claim that all training paradigms other than his are inferior is complete arrogant horseshit…
are full-body routines effective, sure they are, but no more so than the westside split system or any other tried and true training protocol…
[sarcasm]
by the way, DO YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO TRAIN WITH THE WESTSIDE SYSTEM? OR ARE YOU TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY?
[/sarcasm]
[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
So show me these people that have achieved the physique I am after using his methods and then talk to me. Has he ever trained a top BB’er? I dont know but everytime I ask to see some evidence I dont get an answer.
A[/quote]
You need to read the article - and understand what CW’s market is. I doubt that he has any world class body builders in his stable. But if he did - why would he trot them out to prove anything to a bunch of non-paying leeches?
I am not calling you out - so don’t take it wrong. But this place is full of folks that would not pay a dime for any training help. This place is also full of paper tigers that can argue training all day - especially since they haven’t seen the inside of a gym in years, if ever.
Honestly - how something so simple fly over so many people’s head?
I think you guys hate to have your own dogma questioned. All Chad had to do was make an outrageous statement, and you guys piss down your leg defending split training.
I’ll say it for the third time - Chad is the only guy that is going to sell Chad. The quote was not taken from a round table discussion. It was taken from the intro to an article, and he was doing some chest pounding. TO draw and quarter him based on that is a little over the top considering the marketing job Biotest around here.
Is Biotest as guilty as Chad? Probably - if that’s the term one uses to describe unabashed self-promotion. But why doesn’t anyone call Biotest out?
Or - maybe Chad is sick of this place and is looking for someone to show him the door.
With the obvious close mindedness that is so glaringly apparent in this thread - who would want to stay around?
[quote]DPH wrote:
[sarcasm]
by the way, DO YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO TRAIN WITH THE WESTSIDE SYSTEM? OR ARE YOU TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY?
[/sarcasm][/quote]
Maybe. I just don’t care to make my training that involved. I like splits. I like TBT. I like EDT.
I don’t give a rat’s ass about strength. I can’t tell you what my max bench, squat, or DL is because I don’t care. I just want to get bigger. Nothing I see in Westside makes me think I would do anything but buy a bunch of chains, and bands and boxes. Fuck - I just want to train and get out.
SO what does that have to do with anything? Does that mean that you will answer one of my questions now? God knows you have a real talent for avoiding them.
BTW - I think you misquote him. He says that tbt is the best for hypertrophy and fitness. At least that’s the way I read him.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
To call him out when you know dick about his industry is just bullshit.
[/quote]
oh, I think I understand now (I fully admit to being a bit slow), people in his industry have to use absurd levels of hyperbole to make money…
fitness industry guru-wannabes have to make intentionally exaggerated claims or they’ll never be able to bank on the average shmuck’s gullibility…
damn, I have seriously misunderstood Chad up to this point, Waterbury is a fucking hyperbole genius!
No offense taken. Yeah I did not read the article and I am sure it helps to understand the context of that quote.
I dont mind having my dogma questioned at all. This is how I train and these are my results. That does not make my methods the solution to everyone, but at least I can say this is what I do and this is what it has done for me.
In order for me to consider using a different method, I would prefer a better one, it would help me to see some examples of what it has done for people. I am big in believing things I can see, that does not mean I am close minded to other strategies and approaches.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
So show me these people that have achieved the physique I am after using his methods and then talk to me. Has he ever trained a top BB’er? I dont know but everytime I ask to see some evidence I dont get an answer.
A
You need to read the article - and understand what CW’s market is. I doubt that he has any world class body builders in his stable. But if he did - why would he trot them out to prove anything to a bunch of non-paying leeches?
I am not calling you out - so don’t take it wrong. But this place is full of folks that would not pay a dime for any training help. This place is also full of paper tigers that can argue training all day - especially since they haven’t seen the inside of a gym in years, if ever.
Honestly - how something so simple fly over so many people’s head?
I think you guys hate to have your own dogma questioned. All Chad had to do was make an outrageous statement, and you guys piss down your leg defending split training.
I’ll say it for the third time - Chad is the only guy that is going to sell Chad. The quote was not taken from a round table discussion. It was taken from the intro to an article, and he was doing some chest pounding. TO draw and quarter him based on that is a little over the top considering the marketing job Biotest around here.
Is Biotest as guilty as Chad? Probably - if that’s the term one uses to describe unabashed self-promotion. But why doesn’t anyone call Biotest out?
Or - maybe Chad is sick of this place and is looking for someone to show him the door.
With the obvious close mindedness that is so glaringly apparent in this thread - who would want to stay around? [/quote]
[quote]DPH wrote:
rainjack wrote:
To call him out when you know dick about his industry is just bullshit.
oh, I think I understand now (I fully admit to being a bit slow), people in his industry have to use absurd levels of hyperbole to make money…
fitness industry guru-wannabes have to make intentionally exaggerated claims or they’ll never be able to bank on the average shmuck’s gullibility…
damn, I have seriously misunderstood Chad up to this point, Waterbury is a fucking hyperbole genius![/quote]
No - you are just ignorant about business. That must make everyone else seem smarter - but it happens all around you.
If you think for one fucking second that anyone on staff at T-Nation is here for any reason other than to further their careers (that means to make more money), you are delusional.
Do you hold Biotest in contempt as well? I mean - if you can’t see their “hyperbole” you are beyond help.
[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
No offense taken. Yeah I did not read the article and I am sure it helps to understand the context of that quote.
I dont mind having my dogma questioned at all. This is how I train and these are my results. That does not make my methods the solution to everyone, but at least I can say this is what I do and this is what it has done for me.
In order for me to consider using a different method, I would prefer a better one, it would help me to see some examples of what it has done for people. I am big in believing things I can see, that does not mean I am close minded to other strategies and approaches.
[/quote]
Understood. I use them all for myself (except Westside - just not a fan) before passing judgement. Everything works. And before long - nothing does. I keep changing. So don’t think I am married to one theory.
I just really think that Chad’s statement has been blown completely out of proportion.
For folks that want to call him out for being brash, I think they should also call out Biotest for the statements they make about their supps. To me it is the same thing. Both Biotest and CW are trying to sell a product. Have you read some of the drivel at the store? It makes Chad’s statement look like a girl scout cookie.
If anything - What CW said should not have been in the training tips section. Especially not the intro of an article.
But look at the controversy that ensued. Maybe they know what they are doing around here inspite of what a bunch of keyboard training gurus think .