T Nation

1/2 4 My Ego 1/2 4 Appetite

I’ve been reviewing the physique/performance section over and decided I would put a bit of a rant in here under the newbie section…

I know this is likely to start a flame… but Ill take the risk anyway…

Here is a bit for me ego…

I cannot remember the last time I spent a week in full dedication to strength or hypertrophy. Endurance training dominates my life… most often twice a day. I have managed to maintain a solid weight of 170.

Yes, 170 is small, but what does this say for all you guys that weigh less then me? I spend 1 day a week in the weight room and I weigh just as much if not more then you and plenty of you have been putting solid dedication into weight training for years on end.

Pick up some food and eat it

Its hard to take this from an endurance athlete… but I am not the only one saying it.

With the arrival of Carbolin 19 and the come of October there is a good chance I’ll be making the same gains as you with nothing but improvement in my endurance times.

Maybe some taunting will light the fire under your ass… skinny bastards

Question then: what purpose would it serve for the said “skinny bastards” to pig-out if they are hardly lifting while maintaining an 170 pound frame (which isn’t all that small for an endurance athlete)??? They seem to be content with being small and enjoy poking fun at the guys that are killing themselves day in and out lifting, who barely reaching 170 (whom are either not eating properly or severely genetically disadvantaged).

Your rant might make more sense if you would have said something like this: the large majority of serious lifters (5 years or more hardcore) typically carry 160-170 pounds in lean body mass ALONE! Further, they are certainly stronger the those long-distance junkies and I know where my money would be in a fist fight. Not to mention, the last time I checked, the hottest girls were hanging on the most muscular guys - not the guys with the best 5K time.

So, let them eat their banana and soy milk for breakfast and do events that are slightly less exciting than the PBA, and we’ll keep snagging the hotties and being able to open jars without wincing.

TopSirloin

[quote]TopSirloin wrote:
Question then: what purpose would it serve for the said “skinny bastards” to pig-out if they are hardly lifting while maintaining an 170 pound frame (which isn’t all that small for an endurance athlete)??? They seem to be content with being small and enjoy poking fun at the guys that are killing themselves day in and out lifting, who barely reaching 170 (whom are either not eating properly or severely genetically disadvantaged).

Your rant might make more sense if you would have said something like this: the large majority of serious lifters (5 years or more hardcore) typically carry 160-170 pounds in lean body mass ALONE! Further, they are certainly stronger the those long-distance junkies and I know where my money would be in a fist fight. Not to mention, the last time I checked, the hottest girls were hanging on the most muscular guys - not the guys with the best 5K time.

So, let them eat their banana and soy milk for breakfast and do events that are slightly less exciting than the PBA, and we’ll keep snagging the hotties and being able to open jars without wincing.

TopSirloin[/quote]

Same guys that walk to Jamba Juice after the gym…

29g of Soy Protein baby! It never fails to make my tits grow.

It’s okay to weigh less than 170lbs if you’re 5’6 or less. I’m 5’4" and I’ll never weigh more than 170lbs. My goal is 165lbs at 10-12% bodyfat. For my small bone frame, that is pretty damn big.

But for all of you guys that are 6’ or more, yeah, 170lbs is too damn skinny.

Point well made, Nate. But, I’d say 5’-10" is the cut-off where 170 pounds starts to be too small.

TS

Haha, isn’t this like the pot calling the kettle black? You never said how tall you are, which makes a huge difference. Some guy standing 5’5" at 170 is gonna look huge next to a guy standing 6’2" at 170. Also, don’t assume that since you are able to maintain 170lbs. without trying, that others are able to just as easily. Some people have to work very, very hard just to achieve that.

I know that the height/weight/lbm proportion is an important factor in appearance. I have benefited from this a great deal. At 5’9, 160lbs., and prety damn lean, some people outside of this forum think that I must be on roids or a freak(compared to them). The problem that I have to confront is the weight on the bar. I have had to shift my values from cosmetics to just putting up some serious weight.

So at 170, and training for endurance, what kind of weights are you moving?

Don’t mistake this for a flame or challenge. My curiosity exists because a friend of mine has gone from Ironman training and participation to pure powerlifting, and has achieved some great results. I was wondering if having an exelent cardio,respiratory system to start with has helped in building and supporting muscle.

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
I know that the height/weight/lbm proportion is an important factor in appearance. I have benefited from this a great deal. At 5’9, 160lbs., and prety damn lean, some people outside of this forum think that I must be on roids or a freak(compared to them). The problem that I have to confront is the weight on the bar. I have had to shift my values from cosmetics to just putting up some serious weight.

So at 170, and training for endurance, what kind of weights are you moving?

Don’t mistake this for a flame or challenge. My curiosity exists because a friend of mine has gone from Ironman training and participation to pure powerlifting, and has achieved some great results. I was wondering if having an exelent cardio,respiratory system to start with has helped in building and supporting muscle.
[/quote]

at 5’11" 170 I am far from big. I would say more “dense” then big. Your post brings up some interesting stuff.

I don’t want to avoid your question but at this point in mid season it would be hard for me to give you a 1RM for any movements as I can’t put that much resistance stress on the body. On the bench I can move 225 and I would say on 315 on squat and dead. These numbers may be far from impressive but relative to overall hours training I would say strength training is very minimal.

Ironically, I see every reason why your friend would benefit from ironman training in a transition to powerlifting. This follows the 100 rep principle mentioned in an article here (not sure on the author). Think of how much capillary density there is per muscle fiber when he began training.

The point of the post wasn’t to sound big or pump out my chest as relative to most on this site I am no where near as impressive in the strength category.
To give a little brag… my prowess comes in the VO2max category (72 ml/kg/min @ 170 lbs)

The point was more to give some people some fire to work off… yes 170 lbs is difficult to maintain for most… it is also very difficult to maintain when training from endurance races where minimal time is near 2 hours (olympic distance) and some races go up into 9+ hours (ironman).

There is even a big difference in sizes at the same height. With clothes on itd be hard to guess that I was 170 lbs (smaller looking). You look at someone like John Berardi and he looks as if he may be 210 but in his recent post he was 190.

I like to see people constantly pushing their PR… that is what it is all about. As an endurance athlete I feel like an extreme minority amongst T-Nation but I have never found a place that keeps me going. It is the constant push to be dedicated in whatever your goals are…

the restless persuit of ever-so-distant-and-only-increasing goals, be it in body building, powerlifting, pr endurance, all comes from the same place… testosterone.

Your taunting is about as effective as being yelled at by a substitute teacher.

[quote]sugarfree wrote:
Your taunting is about as effective as being yelled at by a substitute teacher.[/quote]

I figured as much especially for people in this arena. I don’t know your stats but you could probably take me in a lifting competition but I am sure I could take you in tri.

You are correct. You could take me in a tri. But if I was to log into a tri site, and boast about how much stronger I was then the rest of the tri athletes. I would be in the wrong forum. Or arena.

Please pick your fights in tri forums. We like picking heavy stuff up here.

OK, that’s cool and all that you tried to motivate the skinny guys. Cool times, dude. Why do you bring up Carbolin 19 though? I’m curious on this one. Carbolin 19 isn’t going to increase your gains. You said it yourself, you don’t focus on adding muscle, you’re 5’11", 170. Why even mention it?

[quote]sugarfree wrote:
You are correct. You could take me in a tri. But if I was to log into a tri site, and boast about how much stronger I was then the rest of the tri athletes. I would be in the wrong forum. Or arena.

Please pick your fights in tri forums. We like picking heavy stuff up here.
[/quote]

I don’t recall picking a fight?

You are attempting to shoot down and ego that isn’t ther?

Of the two posts you have made in this thread I don’t see the intent in either?

it is quite possible that my post was taken a bit more egotistical then was meant. in that case in my follow-up post i dont think it is hard to tell that i didn’t mean it in a “big headed” way.

i don’t see any validity in the implication that i do not belong here

[quote]vandalay15 wrote:
OK, that’s cool and all that you tried to motivate the skinny guys. Cool times, dude. Why do you bring up Carbolin 19 though? I’m curious on this one. Carbolin 19 isn’t going to increase your gains. You said it yourself, you don’t focus on adding muscle, you’re 5’11", 170. Why even mention it? [/quote]

I am actually adding Carbolin 19 to my supplement list in hope (and reasonable reason to believe) that it will allow me to increase strenght while training my endurance capacity. The idea of incorporating strength gains in ultra-endurance events has always been injury prevention as some studies have shown that any attempt at improving strength gain is worthless (and some studies have shown the opposite). I am going on the possibility that Carbolin 19 would allow strength gains to be made or maintained. This depends on the type of training you do. Some athletes strength train off season and go full endurance in season (but by the end the strenght gain is almost lost) and some athletes mix all year. In either case you would hope Carbolin 19 would either maintain the preseason or allow gains for the mixed. Its a risk but with huge benefit if it works. The benefit being that there now is a supplement that would significantly change an endurance athletes training regimen. It is in that hope that I will be able to make strength gains and maintain a light weight alll the while improving aerobic capacity… sounds like a long shot but i think this is the one time its got a chance…

I am applying a very similar approach with Max Strength HOT-ROX. In the sense that I am adding it to my training regimen in the 7 day period of high fat diet to preserve muscle mass before the carbo load.

So in a sense you are right… I don’t focus on adding muscle because the amount of endurance training destroys any chance of it… but now with Carbolin 19 it might actually have a chance. My next tri is September 25th. Right now the plan is to start on Monday with Carbolin 19. I am still debating waiting until the off season.

Carbolin 19 isn’t going to help you get stronger/“keep more muscle” while balancing your endurance training w/ weights thrown in. A pill isn’t a substitute for hard work. You need to find an appropriate training program geared towards improving your strength. At your level, you can make outstanding gains in the strength department training 2-3 times a week while still doing your endurance stuff. You weigh 170 lbs., just eat more food. Carbolin 19 will not allow you to “keep” your muscle gains as if they’re going to disappear. Just eat more food to exceed/equal your energy needs, which will be quite high due to the combo of strength/endurance training.

Bottom line: At 170 lbs. and relatively weak strength level, you will make great gains if you train correctly. Endurance training will only be a major hindrance once you get much more advanced, which you have a long ways to go. Don’t look for your solutions in a pill because it’s just not that easy.

[quote]vandalay15 wrote:
Carbolin 19 isn’t going to help you get stronger/“keep more muscle” while balancing your endurance training w/ weights thrown in. A pill isn’t a substitute for hard work. You need to find an appropriate training program geared towards improving your strength. At your level, you can make outstanding gains in the strength department training 2-3 times a week while still doing your endurance stuff. You weigh 170 lbs., just eat more food. Carbolin 19 will not allow you to “keep” your muscle gains as if they’re going to disappear. Just eat more food to exceed/equal your energy needs, which will be quite high due to the combo of strength/endurance training.

Bottom line: At 170 lbs. and relatively weak strength level, you will make great gains if you train correctly. Endurance training will only be a major hindrance once you get much more advanced, which you have a long ways to go. Don’t look for your solutions in a pill because it’s just not that easy.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand my goals.

I am a collegiate triathlete. Hence my focus is and always will be endurance strength. Multiple studies have shown that strength training simultaneously with endurance training yields minimal strength gains because of the entirely different demand on the muscle tissue and its components. With that said, I am not looking to improve my bench press or my squat per se, but I am looking to add significant gains to overall power in the triathlon disciplines.

I am not expecting to take Carbolin 19 and sit on the couch and improve my times the work. On the contrary it is likely that I will be able to add a bit more intensity (resistance wise) to my training without it having a significant overtraining effect. It is with that in mind that I am trying Carbolin 19.

I have no intent of going into powerlifting or bodybuilding. There is no reason that an endurance athlete would want to add any mass to their frame (its just more weight to carry). An extra 5lbs for that many miles isn’t going to enhance my performance.

The proposition that I don’t put hard work into my training is inaccurate; I, however, refuse to get into a justification arguement and am sure that my dedication more apparent now that my goals have been clarified.

I forgot to add…

I enjoy testing my own personal application of supplements to see how it will enhance or hinder my training. While the results may not be scientific I have found many supplements that have been a great addition to my training. I admit that I have been suckered into buying many supplements that haven’t worked or actually hindered my training. Anytime you look for a supplement edge its a gamble you are agreeing to take… realizing that the detrimental effect is just as fair as the advantageous effect.

I put a decent amount of time into testing supplements one by one… In this time I have added many staple supplements that I use year round.In the order that I added them

Surge
Low-Carb Grow!
ZMA
HRS
Power Drive (used post-workout)
Maximum Strength HOT-ROX (only during carbo-loading)
Classic Grow! MRP

next will be Carbolin 19… we will see how it goes.

I have been where you are.

I think you would be better served by buying a Compex unit and a copy of Supertraining.

Much of your success depends upon nutrition and recovery. Grow! and Surge are what you need, along with plenty of EFA’s.

Alpha Male would help out also, as your "T’ levels take a pounding with endurance training. M might help. Phosphatidylserine works great for your increased cortisol levels brought on by training.

I do not believe that the other stuff you are taking (or are going to take) will help you, but that is just my opinion.

[quote]Legolas wrote:
I have been where you are.

I think you would be better served by buying a Compex unit and a copy of Supertraining.

Much of your success depends upon nutrition and recovery. Grow! and Surge are what you need, along with plenty of EFA’s.

Alpha Male would help out also, as your "T’ levels take a pounding with endurance training. M might help. Phosphatidylserine works great for your increased cortisol levels brought on by training.

I do not believe that the other stuff you are taking (or are going to take) will help you, but that is just my opinion.[/quote]

I will look into the Compex unit after I graduate. For the time being, I am an athletic training student so I get free access to the modalities in our Athletic Training room (such as stim). :wink: Did you notice any benefits from it?

I have considered Alpha Male… I think at my age though it might be a bit much. I could be wrong as I admittedly haven’t put much focus into my T-levels. I would be more likely to consider the M but please do expand.

As far as the other stuff.

HRS is just a carbohydrate (much like dextrose) supplement. I use ZMA as it significantly increases the quality of my sleep. I only recent started adding HOT-ROX to the high-fat portion of the carboload because I have two bottles left over from before and I haven’t found any other use for them (if someone has a better idea let me know). I take 2 fish oil caps with each of my first three meals (P+C) of the day and 3 fish oil caps with each of my last three meals of the day (P+F) with 2-3 tbs of Flax Oil as well.

Good insight, much appreciated.